Stanley Ketchel: All-time great or no?

[GhostofDempsey]

Someone sell me on the greatness of Ketchel. His best wins were Papke and O'Brien. Papke was not an ATG, and O'Brien was a year out from retirement. Outside of his famous KO loss to Johnson after he knocked him down, I don't get the hype around Ketchel. On film he is a crude brawler who clinched a lot and leaned back from punches. He had good punching power and could take a good punch. I'd say his most significant accomplishment was lasting 6 rounds with Langford. Outside of that, am I missing something? Why is he ranked so high on the ATG middleweight lists?

[JAB5239]

Someone sell me on the greatness of Ketchel. His best wins were Papke and O'Brien. Papke was not an ATG, and O'Brien was a year out from retirement. Outside of his famous KO loss to Johnson after he knocked him down, I don't get the hype around Ketchel. On film he is a crude brawler who clinched a lot and leaned back from punches. He had good punching power and could take a good punch. I'd say his most significant accomplishment was lasting 6 rounds with Langford. Outside of that, am I missing something? Why is he ranked so high on the ATG middleweight lists?

Overrated in my opinion. I also believe Langford could have knocked him out but carried him to get a title shot.

[QueensburyRules]

Overrated in my opinion. I also believe Langford could have knocked him out but carried him to get a title shot.

- - It was a 6 rd exhibition Draw to set up their mega fight.

Unfortunately for the Coke addicted Ketchel, in recovery on a remote ranch in training for those bigger fights, he insulted the young girl working the kitchen with ***ual advances that sparked her BF to shoot him dead.

U opinion...priceless...

[Willie Pep 229]

Overrated in my opinion. I also believe Langford could have knocked him out but carried him to get a title shot.

You shouldn't say it that way; you can propose that, suspect that, ETC. but you shouldn't believe it. That's not fair to to Ketchel.

Although of course I can see why Langford MIGHT just do that; need to do that.*

I myself have suggested the same regarding other black-white exhibition match-ups. Most recently why Johnson looked so poorly against O'Brien (I think that's when I brought it up.) But we have to recognize those thoughts as conjecture.

Ketchel was a tough guy who showed his willingness to tangle with a much larger Johnson (until he rushed face first in and got caught big time.)

* He probably wouldn't have gotten the shot at the title anyway. Langford was just too dangerous for anyone to fight. Yet he came with all the burdens associated with a mixed bout. Plus he couldn't put a big number asses in the seats on his own. It made no sense to fight Langford. The sitting white champion had to carry the ticket sales burden himself and then fight a very tough opponent. Na! In a sense Sam's greatness almost insured he'd never get a shot at a title. Better back then to be a so-so black fighter, you probably could make more money.

[JAB5239]

- - It was a 6 rd exhibition Draw to set up their mega fight.

Unfortunately for the Coke addicted Ketchel, in recovery on a remote ranch in training for those bigger fights, he insulted the young girl working the kitchen with ***ual advances that sparked her BF to shoot him dead.

U opinion...priceless...

You knowledge of boxing history isn't very good. Ketchel was an alcoholic and allegedly had an opium addiction. Either way, my opinion is Sam certainly went easy on him to get the title shot. I also don't recall this fight being an exhibition as you claim, but a no decision fight could have ended in knockout.

[Willow The Wisp]

It is a puzzlement my friend.
Why is he ranked so high on the ATG middleweight lists? ....and so many, too?
Especially when this is so far, far away from what YOU are convinced of??!!
Why????

My response to you, Mr. GHOST, is that you're very, very likely asking the wrong question.



IBHOF Mini Profile:
Stanley Ketchel is considered by some to be the greatest middleweight of all time. A natural fighter who was never formally trained, Ketchel propelled himself to fame and the middleweight championship in just six years. Sadly, his career ended when he was murdered at age 24. Ketchel's life often resembled a torrid movie script. Orphaned at fourteen, he ran away from his adoptive home and lived as a hobo, traveling through the Canadian and American West. In Butte, Montana, he worked as a bouncer and also took on all comers in fights at a local theatre. He fought his first recorded professional bout-a one-round knockout-in 1903.


Ketchel lost only twice in his first 42 matches, all fought in Montana. In 1907, he went to California, where he won matches with several well-respected fighters, and by 1908, he had achieved national prominence. His twentieth-round knockout of Jack (Twin) Sullivan earned him the vacant world middleweight title. In his first three months as champion, Ketchel decisioned Billy Papke, and knocked out Hugo Kelly and Joe Thomas. In the rematch with Papke, the challenger punched Ketchel in the head as the fighters were meeting in the center of the ring to shake hands. The referee merely chided Papke, and the fight commenced. Still dazed by the illegal punch, Ketchel never seized control of the fight and was knocked out in the twelfth round. Six weeks later, Ketchel fought Papke with a savage fury and knocked him out in the eleventh, becoming the first middleweight champion to regain a lost title.


In 1909, Ketchel fought some of the most memorable battles of his career. In a no-decision bout against light heavyweight champion Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Ketchel absorbed a solid beating for six rounds, but came back to knock O'Brien down four times in the ninth and tenth rounds. The fight would have been a knockout if O'Brien hadn't been saved by the bell. In their rematch, Ketchel demolished O'Brien in three rounds.


Feeling bold after his strong performances, Ketchel agreed to challenge Jack Johnson for the heavyweight championship. The champ far outweighed Ketchel and was at the peak of his career. For the first six rounds, Ketchel stayed out of Johnson's way. In the seventh, Ketchel caught Johnson with a stinging left to the jaw. Ketchel went on the attack in the eighth and on into the tenth round. Meanwhile, Johnson landed enough punches to bloody Ketchel's face. The moment of truth came in the twelfth round, when Ketchel pounded a right into Johnson's jaw that threw the champ off balance. To the roaring of the crowd, Johnson briefly sat down on the canvas but rose up enraged and blasted Ketchel with a right to the jaw. Ketchel, his mouth a ruin, fell and stayed down for the count.


After the loss to Johnson, Ketchel continued to rack up victories. In 1910, determined to get another shot at the championship, he went to a ranch in Conway, Missouri to train. In this remote locale, the melodrama of Ketchel's life caught up with him. He died with a bullet in his lung, shot by a jealous hired hand who claimed the handsome prizefighter tried to steal his ladyfriend. The killer, Walter Dipley, was convicted of first-degree murder and served 23 years in prison.


Had he not died, Ketchel might have accomplished much more, perhaps even winning the heavyweight championship. At it was, he built a great record as middleweight champion and recorded 49 knockouts in 64 fights.




Hank Kaplan's CBZ - Ketchel record preface:
Ketchel is rated by many boxing historians as the best Middleweight ever; He punched out heavyweights as easily as middleweights; Stanley put tremendous pressure on his opponents and was an aggressive attacker who threw dangerous knockout punches from any angle with either hand; He was shot and killed by Walter Dipley, a jealous farm worker.

Nat Fleischer and Charley Rose both ranked Ketchel as the All-Time Middleweight; Herb Goldman ranked him as the All-Time Middleweight; He was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1954 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990.

The IBRO:
1. Harry Greb
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Mickey Walker
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Charley Burley
10. Marcel Cerdan


Nat Fleischer (1971):
Middleweights:
1 - Stanley Ketchell
2 - Tommy Ryan
3 - Harry Greb
4 - Mickey Walker
5 - Ray Robinson
6 - Frank Klaus
7 - Billy Papke
8 - Les Darcy
9 - Mike Gibbons
10- Jeff Smith


Sports Illustrated (2009):
1. Harry Greb
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Mickey Walker
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Charley Burley
8. **** Tiger
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Jake Lamotta

Monte Cox:
1. Harry Greb
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Charley Burley
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. **** Tiger
10. Jake Lamotta

[QueensburyRules]

You knowledge of boxing history isn't very good. Ketchel was an alcoholic and allegedly had an opium addiction. Either way, my opinion is Sam certainly went easy on him to get the title shot. I also don't recall this fight being an exhibition as you claim, but a no decision fight could have ended in knockout.

- - I try my best to go easy on U, but it ain't easy...

[JAB5239]

- - I try my best to go easy on U, but it ain't easy...

Listen cupcake, if he can't keep up with the adults than don't bother chiming in. I'm hoping since you were able to retire at 50 you can pay me a visit and "take it easy" on me sparring. Something tells me you know less about actual fighting than you do about boxing history though so I won't expect you any time soon.

[Dr. Z]

Ketchel looks very ordinary on film to me. I've seen him vs Johnson and Papke. Ketchel lacks fast hands, accuracy, a jab and mixing of punches, no defense and is pretty much stationary in there. And he is short. He was a hitter though and had great staima.

His record of losing times ( five times if you count news losses to Langford and Klauss ) with three draws to me shows you who he was .

A very over rated old timer if you ask me. Below is Ketchel vs Papke. Ketchel looks like a jr middleweight here. Pakpe is the disadvantaged man in the cheeks trunk.

Not a top 10 or top 15 middleweight in my book.

[QueensburyRules]

Listen cupcake, if he can't keep up with the adults than don't bother chiming in. I'm hoping since you were able to retire at 50 you can pay me a visit and "take it easy" on me sparring. Something tells me you know less about actual fighting than you do about boxing history though so I won't expect you any time soon.

- - As I've mentioned in volume, Scully the only guy I'm interested in sparring though I'd have gladly taken up Two Ton Toney back in the day.