Heavyweight Outliers

[Slugfester]

I think perhaps it only or usually happens among heavyweights--outlier matches--because I am not sure they are fights.

Fury's next match will be an outlier against non-boxer Nagannau (sp). We can only wish Francis luck. One form of luck might be if Fury comes in overconfident and semi-out of shape. But I am getting off point.

What other outlier matches have occurred in the past, as far back as you want to go, and not even necessarily boxing?

[YGriffith]

Does George foreman fighting 5 men in one night count?

[Rockybigblower]

Rocky vs Thunderlips.

[Slugfester]

Does George foreman fighting 5 men in one night count?

Indeed.

[Willie Pep 229]

Ed The Strangler Lewis (Wrestler) when he needed some ink would challenge Dempsey every two years or so.

Dempsey being a mensch would always reply "maybe." So there would be a few days talk about it.

One year a promoter out of Witchita Kansas put together a series of complicated rules. (New York Times, 8 Januray 1923).

The proposed matches never came off.

[Slugfester]

I love that famous photo of Ali jumping in the air with an intense weird look on his face, trying to kick the Japanese wrestler.

[Marchegiano]

I'll just pick some favs from various points in history. ... shooting from the hip so if anything interests you, you should look it up or ask me for sources or some such before repeating this to other. I can misremember stuff.



For the ancients we have to go with Theo.

Theaganese of Thasos was a champion boxer, pankrationist, wrestler, and even a runner. He was never beaten and boasts over 1200 victories.




The next great period in our sport would be the 1700s English revival but first let us talk about dark ages because they are important they're just not well known

.

Most of Europe, boxing survives through duels. Honor and judicial duels. In Kiev they formed a sort of team boxing sport and in Venice they had a different sort of team boxing. As far I am aware these two are the only versions of sport boxing in existence from the 300sAD to the 1720sAD. Duels, by the nature of them, are not sport.

The Russian sport was exclusively team based and had little to do with any outlier fighting other than it itself being an outlier of the one-vs-one we associate with boxing.

In Veneto though, the Battagliole was a team sport that featured the option of a mostre, or, one-on-one duel.

Through the Venetian history of boxing we find one Tome Panchia of the Niccoletto. Tome(toe-may) was a fist fighter who was talented as both a 1vs1 and a leader troops. He fought with fist, dagger, and/or rock.



For the English revival era the OG, James Figg, can not be forgotten here. He fought with fist, sword, staff, and club. He is often credited as the man who brought boxing back but that happened about 80 years before he was popular. James Figg came from an era when dueling was still the form organized violence took most often and of course most duels were with weapons.



I had to cut short. surprise visit at my door. ... with children ...

[Willow The Wisp]

During his "exile" in Europe while champion, Jack Johnson had a fairly extensive exhibition wresting career. This was separate from his worked matches in the 1920s and 30s, in the US and Australia, that took place long after his tenure as champion.
While living in Europe, Jack found a very good living winning and sometimes losing against some of the best grapplers on the continent, and in the long tradition of Vero Small (Samuel Hadley), Captain James Daly, Professor William Miller, Patty Ryan, Gus Lambert and many others before him, Johnson was a skilled catch wrestler.

A partial listing of Johnson's wrestling matches while in Europe would include:

1913
Oct. Willi Urbach, Paris, France......W
Nov. Jimmy Easson, Paris, France.....L
Nov. Andre Sproul, Paris, France.....NC W KO Foul
Nov. Joe Rogers, Paris, France.....W
Dec. Aimable de la Calmette, Paris, France.....W

1914
Jan. Fred Marcussen, Berlin, Germany.....L
Feb. Martin Zikoff, Hamburg, Germany.....W
Mar. Charles Hansen, Gothenburg, Swd.....W
Mar. Rudolf Gr�neisen, Gothenburg, Swd.....W
Mar. Iivari Tuomiso, Gothenburg, Swd.....D
Apr. Ernst Erlenkamp, Geneva, Swiz......W
Apr. Saki Hevonp��, Helsinki, Finland.....D
May. Oswald Buchheim, Vienna, Austria.....D
Jun. Heinrich Lobmayer, Graz, Austria.....W
Aug. Heinrich Weber, Budapest, Hungary.....W
Aug. Paul Westergaard-Schmidt, Berlin, Ger.....D
Sep. Buzovac Mourzouck, Minsk, Rus.....D
Oct. Josef Smejkal, Pilsen, Czech Rep.....W
Nov. Josef Smejkal. Pilsen, Czech Rep.....W

1915
Feb. Gustav Naber, Brussels, Belgium.....W

1916
May. Guiseppe Masetti, Rome, Italy.....W

1918
Jul. Juan Ochoa, Bilbao, Spain.....W

[Willie Pep 229]

During his "exile" in Europe while champion, Jack Johnson had a fairly extensive exhibition wresting career. This was separate from his worked matches in the 1920s and 30s, in the US and Australia, that took place long after his tenure as champion.
While living in Europe, Jack found a very good living winning and sometimes losing against some of the best grapplers on the continent, and in the long tradition of Vero Small (Samuel Hadley), Captain James Daly, Professor William Miller, Patty Ryan, Gus Lambert and many others before him, Johnson was a skilled catch wrestler.

A partial listing of Johnson's wrestling matches while in Europe would include:

1913
Oct. Willi Urbach, Paris, France......W
Nov. Jimmy Easson, Paris, France.....L
Nov. Andre Sproul, Paris, France.....NC W KO Foul
Nov. Joe Rogers, Paris, France.....W
Dec. Aimable de la Calmette, Paris, France.....W

1914
Jan. Fred Marcussen, Berlin, Germany.....L
Feb. Martin Zikoff, Hamburg, Germany.....W
Mar. Charles Hansen, Gothenburg, Swd.....W
Mar. Rudolf Gr�neisen, Gothenburg, Swd.....W
Mar. Iivari Tuomiso, Gothenburg, Swd.....D
Apr. Ernst Erlenkamp, Geneva, Swiz......W
Apr. Saki Hevonp��, Helsinki, Finland.....D
May. Oswald Buchheim, Vienna, Austria.....D
Jun. Heinrich Lobmayer, Graz, Austria.....W
Aug. Heinrich Weber, Budapest, Hungary.....W
Aug. Paul Westergaard-Schmidt, Berlin, Ger.....D
Sep. Buzovac Mourzouck, Minsk, Rus.....D
Oct. Josef Smejkal, Pilsen, Czech Rep.....W
Nov. Josef Smejkal. Pilsen, Czech Rep.....W

1915
Feb. Gustav Naber, Brussels, Belgium.....W

1916
May. Guiseppe Masetti, Rome, Italy.....W

1918
Jul. Juan Ochoa, Bilbao, Spain.....W

So that's how he survived the exile during 1913-14. (Of course along with the boxing bouts later on in Spain/Mexico in 1916-1919.)

I did not know that; that's more a short career than an outlier.

Because he got paid little for Johnson and nothing for Moran. I wonder what kind of purses he was demanding for the wrestling matches vs. the boxing bouts in Spain and Mexico?

Interesting, you can see that even the wrestling died up after the Willard fight and he had no choice but to cop to a one year prison deal in 1920.

[Willow The Wisp]

I'll just pick some favs from various points in history. ... shooting from the hip so if anything interests you, you should look it up or ask me for sources or some such before repeating this to other. I can misremember stuff.



For the ancients we have to go with Theo.

Theaganese of Thasos was a champion boxer, pankrationist, wrestler, and even a runner. He was never beaten and boasts over 1200 victories.




The next great period in our sport would be the 1700s English revival but first let us talk about dark ages because they are important they're just not well known

.

Most of Europe, boxing survives through duels. Honor and judicial duels. In Kiev they formed a sort of team boxing sport and in Venice they had a different sort of team boxing. As far I am aware these two are the only versions of sport boxing in existence from the 300sAD to the 1720sAD. Duels, by the nature of them, are not sport.

The Russian sport was exclusively team based and had little to do with any outlier fighting other than it itself being an outlier of the one-vs-one we associate with boxing.

In Veneto though, the Battagliole was a team sport that featured the option of a mostre, or, one-on-one duel.

Through the Venetian history of boxing we find one Tome Panchia of the Niccoletto. Tome(toe-may) was a fist fighter who was talented as both a 1vs1 and a leader troops. He fought with fist, dagger, and/or rock.



For the English revival era the OG, James Figg, can not be forgotten here. He fought with fist, sword, staff, and club. He is often credited as the man who brought boxing back but that happened about 80 years before he was popular. James Figg came from an era when dueling was still the form organized violence took most often and of course most duels were with weapons.



I had to cut short. surprise visit at my door. ... with children ...

Good stuff