Marciano is not a top 10 ATG, not even top 50

[Spartacus Sully]

But there is another factor to it , the push behind the punch , after the punch has landed and what you said is done there is an additional push behind the punch which is what is called the commitment to it , and this is what explains some of Foreman's punches success , whenever he committed to his punches , he could push harder than Marciano because he was so much bigger , more mass and power behind his punches + sometimes he could punch down which is harder in general than punching up as gravity is a factor too.

well there is the other factor, the push, the slower you are and the more mass you have the less you hit some one and the more you just push them around.

just as with the innital impact theres the elasticity of the impact factoring into just how much force is conveyed into the impact coming from the kinetic energy.

now to this there are a million and a half different factors mainly around the movement of the head and its resistance to move. if the head were say a 20 lb ball hanging from the ceiling the faster punch is able to convey more of the kenitic energy to the ball before the ball flys away. as well when dealing with an actual human when the faster hit hits in the head the energy is more concentrated in the head where as with the hit then push the initial shot is concentrated to the head but alot of the follow through energy is transfered to the body and not the actual rattling of the brain which causes a KO.

and punching up or down dosnt matter its alittle more difficult to punch up due to gravity but its only difficult on your stamina, not to restrict how hard on can punch. when the rock punched upwards he was pretty much jumping in the air with his whole body weight and the force of his legs behind his punches.

on top of that when your punching downwards you have the acceleration of gravity helping you, but thats only 9.8 meters per second which after a second would be about 20 mph. I dont know any one that takes a whole second to punch, that little 9.8 meters persecond is nothing compared to the acceleration from your feet.

[BattlingNelson]

I hate to say this. I'm a big fan of marciano and I loved his fights. But let's be honest here, some people actually mention his name with ali, foreman, frazier etc it's not fair to them.

Marcianos best wins were against guys that were over 40 and way past their primes. He retired at 32 because he knew floyd patterson would flatten him.

Good jaw, amazing work ethic and a decent hitting right hand was about all he had to offer to the boxing world.

I thought this could be a good thread, but when I saw that you don't present any arguments for your claim I realized that the thread is not worthwhile. The way you could make it interesting is to present the 50 fighters who in your opinion is above Marciano.

Untill you do that this thread is worthless I'm sorry to say.

[frankenfrank]

well there is the other factor, the push, the slower you are and the more mass you have the less you hit some one and the more you just push them around.

just as with the innital impact theres the elasticity of the impact factoring into just how much force is conveyed into the impact coming from the kinetic energy.

now to this there are a million and a half different factors mainly around the movement of the head and its resistance to move. if the head were say a 20 lb ball hanging from the ceiling the faster punch is able to convey more of the kenitic energy to the ball before the ball flys away. as well when dealing with an actual human when the faster hit hits in the head the energy is more concentrated in the head where as with the hit then push the initial shot is concentrated to the head but alot of the follow through energy is transfered to the body and not the actual rattling of the brain which causes a KO.

and punching up or down dosnt matter its alittle more difficult to punch up due to gravity but its only difficult on your stamina, not to restrict how hard on can punch. when the rock punched upwards he was pretty much jumping in the air with his whole body weight and the force of his legs behind his punches.

on top of that when your punching downwards you have the acceleration of gravity helping you, but thats only 9.8 meters per second which after a second would be about 20 mph. I dont know any one that takes a whole second to punch, that little 9.8 meters persecond is nothing compared to the acceleration from your feet.

I would not have omitted the factor of gravity but your last 2 posts are good and articulate and now even quite exact , but do you suggest that Marciano could have rattled Lyle the way Foreman did ? even Shavers did not KO Lyle despite landing hard on him but Foreman did .
So yes , Lyle was lucky to have the round ended before Shavers could have finished him , but fact he recuperated enough to manage a KO of his own.
Foreman KOd Lyle despite Lyle flooring him twice before , so how do you explain it ? it was not as if Lyle was such a chinny fighter , do you suggest Marciano could have KOd him if he landed ? Shavers landed and he got up , Foreman landed and he didn't. Could Marciano floor him for the count if he managed to land flush ?

[Spartacus Sully]

I would not have omitted the factor of gravity but your last 2 posts are good and articulate and now even quite exact , but do you suggest that Marciano could have rattled Lyle the way Foreman did ? even Shavers did not KO Lyle despite landing hard on him but Foreman did .
So yes , Lyle was lucky to have the round ended before Shavers could have finished him , but fact he recuperated enough to manage a KO of his own.
Foreman KOd Lyle despite Lyle flooring him twice before , so how do you explain it ? it was not as if Lyle was such a chinny fighter , do you suggest Marciano could have KOd him if he landed ? Shavers landed and he got up , Foreman landed and he didn't. Could Marciano floor him for the count if he managed to land flush ?

lyle probly wouldnt have even been alive if marciano was able to get off as many clean shots as forman did prior to lyle going down. if it were marciano lyle would have swaggered and fallen to the ground not to the ropes only to last another 10 seconds of formans pushing and still not having been knocked unconcious but really only having given up, well not given up till the ten count but given up in that he was still lieing on the canvas even while people were going to help him up, not like he was lieing there because he couldnt get up.

[frankenfrank]

lyle probly wouldnt have even been alive if marciano was able to get off as many clean shots as forman did prior to lyle going down. if it were marciano lyle would have swaggered and fallen to the ground not to the ropes only to last another 10 seconds of formans pushing and still not having been knocked unconcious but really only having given up, well not given up till the ten count but given up in that he was still lieing on the canvas even while people were going to help him up, not like he was lieing there because he couldnt get up.

So Louis , Walcott , Charles and Moore were all superbly sturdier chinned and necked than Lyle that they stayed alive after Marciano's lands on them ?
And you claim Marciano hit harder than Shavers ?

[Spartacus Sully]

So Louis , Walcott , Charles and Moore were all superbly sturdier chinned and necked than Lyle that they stayed alive after Marciano's lands on them ?
And you claim Marciano hit harder than Shavers ?

im saying the 100 clean hits from george in the 40 seconds prior to lyle going down wouldn't even be equal to 50 clean hits from Marciano.

and yeah i have faith in my claim that marciano had one of the hardest hitting right hands. shavers hit **** loads harder then foreman just from first glance off box rec but ill stay with rocky hitting harder still. though i should probly watch some of shavers if i actually want to argue it any fruther.

after watching some shavers mainly the lyle fight and some compilations id still put the rocks swing up there past shavers hooks.

[frankenfrank]

im saying the 100 clean hits from george in the 40 seconds prior to lyle going down wouldn't even be equal to 50 clean hits from Marciano.

and yeah i have faith in my claim that marciano had one of the hardest hitting right hands. shavers hit **** loads harder then foreman just from first glance off box rec but ill stay with rocky hitting harder still. though i should probly watch some of shavers if i actually want to argue it any fruther.

after watching some shavers mainly the lyle fight and some compilations id still put the rocks swing up there past shavers hooks.

Shavers' hooks ? These probably were compilations from the Norton fight .
In Shavers' case no need for compilations as his entire fights rarely lasted enough to bore .
Watch the Ellis , Norton , Lyle , Bugner , Quarry and Stander fights and you won't get bored. Tell me if u find one or better both of his fights against Jimmy Young.
Shavers was primarily a straight puncher .
He was renowned for his straight punch.

[Calilloyd]

im saying the 100 clean hits from george in the 40 seconds prior to lyle going down wouldn't even be equal to 50 clean hits from Marciano.

and yeah i have faith in my claim that marciano had one of the hardest hitting right hands. shavers hit **** loads harder then foreman just from first glance off box rec but ill stay with rocky hitting harder still. though i should probly watch some of shavers if i actually want to argue it any fruther.

after watching some shavers mainly the lyle fight and some compilations id still put the rocks swing up there past shavers hooks.

That says it all.

[Spartacus Sully]

Shavers' hooks ? These probably were compilations from the Norton fight .
In Shavers' case no need for compilations as his entire fights rarely lasted enough to bore .
Watch the Ellis , Norton , Lyle , Bugner , Quarry and Stander fights and you won't get bored. Tell me if u find one or better both of his fights against Jimmy Young.
Shavers was primarily a straight puncher .
He was renowned for his straight punch.

yeah shavers hooks, he was quite good at the left and right off the bob, almost better then fraizer in that he kept his hands up though fraizer was the better bobber.

as punching is punching things share similarities, in that shavers punches were very tight through out with out the start of the swing starting wide and coming in tight you cant get the same top speed.

leaving marcianos right swing a harder punch still.

though shaver's straights were also much better then formans in that he was more about speed then mass behind his punches with big slow punches that hit and push. theres barely any pushing factor its just speed cutting through what hes punching with his body weight dragging behind to follow through anything that might stop his fist. he clearly had better straights and a jab then marciano and a faster over all, not top speed, hook.

im not saying Marciano was a better boxer or puncher just that his right swing could very well be the most devastating single blow ever thrown in boxing.

That says it all.

Holy **** records dont mean **** any more...i didnt know that, thanks for letting me know.

I knew one day that the professionally compiled list's of every one different boxers fought in their professional career and how the fights ended would be completely worthless for any information what so ever...soooo i guess that day was yesterday? thanks for letting me know.

[McGoorty]

I hate to say this. I'm a big fan of marciano and I loved his fights. But let's be honest here, some people actually mention his name with ali, foreman, frazier etc it's not fair to them.

Marcianos best wins were against guys that were over 40 and way past their primes. He retired at 32 because he knew floyd patterson would flatten him.

Good jaw, amazing work ethic and a decent hitting right hand was about all he had to offer to the boxing world.

Marciano is without doubt an ATG top 10 HW,...... He actually fought many great fighters and I don't think you are being FAIR TO HIM,...