Lennox Lewis vs World Boxing Association

[Marchegiano]

Just to be clear laced Up brought it up to me and I'm honestly curious what people think. We've taken opposing sides of the debate but I don't really feel it so much as I'm interested in his response, or, for that matter, anyone's response. I was 14 at the time, I don't know ****.

In 2000(?) the WBA stripped Lennox for refusing to fight Ruiz. I'd known this for some time but the story I know places the blame on Lewis not the WBA. I'm very interested in the version of events that places blame on the WBA.

As I know it, and how I presented it to Laced, is Lennox knew Ruiz was contracted in as the first mando for the undisputed champion before he even fought Holy.

Lennox won, Lennox took the contract to court, Lennox lost in court, Lennox then fought Grant for more money than Ruiz while the WBA was kind of forced to enforce their mandates if not the contract the courts had ruled on.

I can't see how the WBA could not have Ruiz in the next title fight, as I know it, Lennox forced the WBA's hand.


Like I said, I was 14. I've done some early research, and sure enough, there are some conflicting reports. Plenty of youse are older than me and don't even have to look up a thing to know what happened. If I was mislead, teach me what I don't know.



I'm just going to tag in QueensburyRules given he's the guy who pointed out to be Lewis did this before defending undisputed even once. I know you're going to make fun of me for not knowing, but, I'm pretty sure you know the story so go right ahead and crack wise.

[QueensburyRules]

Just to be clear laced Up brought it up to me and I'm honestly curious what people think. We've taken opposing sides of the debate but I don't really feel it so much as I'm interested in his response, or, for that matter, anyone's response. I was 14 at the time, I don't know ****.

In 2000(?) the WBA stripped Lennox for refusing to fight Ruiz. I'd known this for some time but the story I know places the blame on Lewis not the WBA. I'm very interested in the version of events that places blame on the WBA.

As I know it, and how I presented it to Laced, is Lennox knew Ruiz was contracted in as the first mando for the undisputed champion before he even fought Holy.

Lennox won, Lennox took the contract to court, Lennox lost in court, Lennox then fought Grant for more money than Ruiz while the WBA was kind of forced to enforce their mandates if not the contract the courts had ruled on.

I can't see how the WBA could not have Ruiz in the next title fight, as I know it, Lennox forced the WBA's hand.


Like I said, I was 14. I've done some early research, and sure enough, there are some conflicting reports. Plenty of youse are older than me and don't even have to look up a thing to know what happened. If I was mislead, teach me what I don't know.



I'm just going to tag in QueensburyRules given he's the guy who pointed out to be Lewis did this before defending undisputed even once. I know you're going to make fun of me for not knowing, but, I'm pretty sure you know the story so go right ahead and crack wise.

- -Got a few million$ to sell off WBA/IBF for DKing to play with for years as he revisited his tubby Lar single beltholder days.

The Ks ran King and Lewis out of the heavywt div and the rest is history.

[Marchegiano]

- -Got a few million$ to sell off WBA/IBF for DKing to play with for years as he revisited his tubby Lar single beltholder days.

The Ks ran King and Lewis out of the heavywt div and the rest is history.

I didn't know Don had anything to do with it, I should have suspected as much though.

Can you speak to how (or if) this case caused the WBA to create the Super champion?

[QueensburyRules]

- -The various orgs have expanded their sanctioning fees this past decade with a smorgasbord of titles including the Super.

Nothing to do with King.

[billeau2]

Just to be clear laced Up brought it up to me and I'm honestly curious what people think. We've taken opposing sides of the debate but I don't really feel it so much as I'm interested in his response, or, for that matter, anyone's response. I was 14 at the time, I don't know ****.

In 2000(?) the WBA stripped Lennox for refusing to fight Ruiz. I'd known this for some time but the story I know places the blame on Lewis not the WBA. I'm very interested in the version of events that places blame on the WBA.

As I know it, and how I presented it to Laced, is Lennox knew Ruiz was contracted in as the first mando for the undisputed champion before he even fought Holy.

Lennox won, Lennox took the contract to court, Lennox lost in court, Lennox then fought Grant for more money than Ruiz while the WBA was kind of forced to enforce their mandates if not the contract the courts had ruled on.

I can't see how the WBA could not have Ruiz in the next title fight, as I know it, Lennox forced the WBA's hand.


Like I said, I was 14. I've done some early research, and sure enough, there are some conflicting reports. Plenty of youse are older than me and don't even have to look up a thing to know what happened. If I was mislead, teach me what I don't know.



I'm just going to tag in QueensburyRules given he's the guy who pointed out to be Lewis did this before defending undisputed even once. I know you're going to make fun of me for not knowing, but, I'm pretty sure you know the story so go right ahead and crack wise.

I am not one to oversimplify things. Sometimes a man with a hammer is bound to see all problems as a nail, and sometimes a good nail just needs a man with a hammer.

Here is my understanding of the situation: One simply MUST have a perspective on history at that time, and forget what we now know about Grant... It makes no sense otherwise to try to understand what actual thoughts abounded, and thoughts acted upon by the different parties involved.

These "organizations" often put a fighter in there for the mandatory that is garbage. Depending on the fighter, this can be a good, or a bad thing...the Klits feasted on the carcass' of these mediocre fighters, they were good boys! Some fighters were more high minded than that. They wanted to fight the best, not who some burocratic group decided they should fight.

Perfect example... Why would Joshua fight Pulov? Why not challenge a fighter who might beat him? Simple right?

lewis was high minded...at the time of this incident, Ruiz was known to be...well, like Pulov, although Pulov is a lot better. There was no sport in Lewis fighting Ruiz, who was perhaps the first fighter who had a manager that threw more punches during a bout than the fighter did.

By comparison Grant was viewed as a legitimate threat to Lewis. the media and fans were at his throat claiming Grant had the size and power to KO him. Grant was the fight people wanted Lewis to take to prove he was the best heavyweight on the planet. Grant had just had a tough outing with Golota, but was undefeated at the time, and was viewed as a legitimate challenge to Lewis.

Now, one can certainly claim Lewis saw that he could take Grant...much like Calzaghe saw Left Hook Lacy as a mark... But the fans should be the ones who determine what they want to see under ideal conditions. The fans will after all, incline towards the best, or "better" in this case.

Lets look at Ruiz record by comparison: Lets quote Wikipedia on this because they say it better than I could,

"After Lennox Lewis defeated Evander Holyfield for the undisputed (WBA, WBC, and IBF) heavyweight title in late 1999, the WBA ordered Lewis to defend the title against mandatory challenger Ruiz, but Lewis refused. Though he had been undefeated since a loss against David Tua in 1996, the level of competition Ruiz had been facing was suspect and the only name he had beaten (to date) was a nearly 40-year-old Tony Tucker."
(Wiki article on JOhn Ruiz).


And there you have it M: Lewis was being high minded and did not want to fight an easy fight. And if one thinks I am making Lewis a heroic figure, he did much the same when he fought Vitalie after his easy mandatory could not fight. Lewis always tried to fight the guys who were a legitimate threat, coming up... Ruiz was neither. Ruiz was a somewhat shopworn, medoicre fighter who got into ugly fights holding his opponents often. Lewis was acting in the interests of the fans, not the buroc****.

[QueensburyRules]

I am not one to oversimplify things. Sometimes a man with a hammer is bound to see all problems as a nail, and sometimes a good nail just needs a man with a hammer.

Here is my understanding of the situation: One simply MUST have a perspective on history at that time, and forget what we now know about Grant... It makes no sense otherwise to try to understand what actual thoughts abounded, and thoughts acted upon by the different parties involved.

These "organizations" often put a fighter in there for the mandatory that is garbage. Depending on the fighter, this can be a good, or a bad thing...the Klits feasted on the carcass' of these mediocre fighters, they were good boys! Some fighters were more high minded than that. They wanted to fight the best, not who some burocratic group decided they should fight.

Perfect example... Why would Joshua fight Pulov? Why not challenge a fighter who might beat him? Simple right?

lewis was high minded...at the time of this incident, Ruiz was known to be...well, like Pulov, although Pulov is a lot better. There was no sport in Lewis fighting Ruiz, who was perhaps the first fighter who had a manager that threw more punches during a bout than the fighter did.

By comparison Grant was viewed as a legitimate threat to Lewis. the media and fans were at his throat claiming Grant had the size and power to KO him. Grant was the fight people wanted Lewis to take to prove he was the best heavyweight on the planet. Grant had just had a tough outing with Golota, but was undefeated at the time, and was viewed as a legitimate challenge to Lewis.

Now, one can certainly claim Lewis saw that he could take Grant...much like Calzaghe saw Left Hook Lacy as a mark... But the fans should be the ones who determine what they want to see under ideal conditions. The fans will after all, incline towards the best, or "better" in this case.

Lets look at Ruiz record by comparison: Lets quote Wikipedia on this because they say it better than I could,

"After Lennox Lewis defeated Evander Holyfield for the undisputed (WBA, WBC, and IBF) heavyweight title in late 1999, the WBA ordered Lewis to defend the title against mandatory challenger Ruiz, but Lewis refused. Though he had been undefeated since a loss against David Tua in 1996, the level of competition Ruiz had been facing was suspect and the only name he had beaten (to date) was a nearly 40-year-old Tony Tucker."
(Wiki article on JOhn Ruiz).


And there you have it M: Lewis was being high minded and did not want to fight an easy fight. And if one thinks I am making Lewis a heroic figure, he did much the same when he fought Vitalie after his easy mandatory could not fight. Lewis always tried to fight the guys who were a legitimate threat, coming up... Ruiz was neither. Ruiz was a somewhat shopworn, medoicre fighter who got into ugly fights holding his opponents often. Lewis was acting in the interests of the fans, not the buroc****.

- -Lennie so high minded that he never defended his unified titles against 2 Ring top 10 mainstays...only in boxing!

[billeau2]

- -Lennie so high minded that he never defended his unified titles against 2 Ring top 10 mainstays...only in boxing!

Ring, WBC, WBO....on and on it goes. Yes high minded and what fighters are you talking about? What Ring top 10 Mainstays? See, cut our the middle man...lets see those fighters you are referring to.

Do you see the irony in how you responded here? It details exactly what I am talking about.

[Marchegiano]

I am not one to oversimplify things. Sometimes a man with a hammer is bound to see all problems as a nail, and sometimes a good nail just needs a man with a hammer.

Here is my understanding of the situation: One simply MUST have a perspective on history at that time, and forget what we now know about Grant... It makes no sense otherwise to try to understand what actual thoughts abounded, and thoughts acted upon by the different parties involved.

These "organizations" often put a fighter in there for the mandatory that is garbage. Depending on the fighter, this can be a good, or a bad thing...the Klits feasted on the carcass' of these mediocre fighters, they were good boys! Some fighters were more high minded than that. They wanted to fight the best, not who some burocratic group decided they should fight.

Perfect example... Why would Joshua fight Pulov? Why not challenge a fighter who might beat him? Simple right?

lewis was high minded...at the time of this incident, Ruiz was known to be...well, like Pulov, although Pulov is a lot better. There was no sport in Lewis fighting Ruiz, who was perhaps the first fighter who had a manager that threw more punches during a bout than the fighter did.

By comparison Grant was viewed as a legitimate threat to Lewis. the media and fans were at his throat claiming Grant had the size and power to KO him. Grant was the fight people wanted Lewis to take to prove he was the best heavyweight on the planet. Grant had just had a tough outing with Golota, but was undefeated at the time, and was viewed as a legitimate challenge to Lewis.

Now, one can certainly claim Lewis saw that he could take Grant...much like Calzaghe saw Left Hook Lacy as a mark... But the fans should be the ones who determine what they want to see under ideal conditions. The fans will after all, incline towards the best, or "better" in this case.

Lets look at Ruiz record by comparison: Lets quote Wikipedia on this because they say it better than I could,

"After Lennox Lewis defeated Evander Holyfield for the undisputed (WBA, WBC, and IBF) heavyweight title in late 1999, the WBA ordered Lewis to defend the title against mandatory challenger Ruiz, but Lewis refused. Though he had been undefeated since a loss against David Tua in 1996, the level of competition Ruiz had been facing was suspect and the only name he had beaten (to date) was a nearly 40-year-old Tony Tucker."
(Wiki article on JOhn Ruiz).


And there you have it M: Lewis was being high minded and did not want to fight an easy fight. And if one thinks I am making Lewis a heroic figure, he did much the same when he fought Vitalie after his easy mandatory could not fight. Lewis always tried to fight the guys who were a legitimate threat, coming up... Ruiz was neither. Ruiz was a somewhat shopworn, medoicre fighter who got into ugly fights holding his opponents often. Lewis was acting in the interests of the fans, not the buroc****.

It is very difficult for me to shake Lennox's foreknowledge though.


The WBA seems all out agreeable to me, I think it's wrong to blame them for Lennox being stripped given the WBA was fine with sidelining Ruiz for Grant. It was Ruiz who took the contract to court and won. The court forced the WBA's hand and the only thing that could stop Lennox from being stripped was Lennox fighting his mando.

Ruiz could have been cool

Lennox could have been cool

The WBA was pretty cool about it best I can tell.

Between John and Lennox I kinda favor John too. I could be wrong but as I know it John did Lennox a favor by allowing Holy to fight Lewis in the first place, then Lennox shat on that favor and snubbed Ruiz....that's a bit bull****.

The only silver lining is Lennox did fight a better man. I have a crazy notion, maybe, if he was really as great as a lot of people say he is he would have simply fought more often. Could fight Ruiz and Grant. Given he is undisputed it isn't like Grant can go for a different champion's title.

[billeau2]

It is very difficult for me to shake Lennox's foreknowledge though.


The WBA seems all out agreeable to me, I think it's wrong to blame them for Lennox being stripped given the WBA was fine with sidelining Ruiz for Grant. It was Ruiz who took the contract to court and won. The court forced the WBA's hand and the only thing that could stop Lennox from being stripped was Lennox fighting his mando.

Ruiz could have been cool

Lennox could have been cool

The WBA was pretty cool about it best I can tell.

Between John and Lennox I kinda favor John too. I could be wrong but as I know it John did Lennox a favor by allowing Holy to fight Lewis in the first place, then Lennox shat on that favor and snubbed Ruiz....that's a bit bull****.

The only silver lining is Lennox did fight a better man. I have a crazy notion, maybe, if he was really as great as a lot of people say he is he would have simply fought more often. Could fight Ruiz and Grant. Given he is undisputed it isn't like Grant can go for a different champion's title.

See to me? I don't look at any of that. Whether it was Ruiz taking him to court, whether he owed something to Jawney. While I will never excuse a fan who harasses a celeb and when punched in the kisser says "waa they get paid a lot they are supposed to put up with me bugging them... I do think athletes owe fans something, and that something is to fight the best, the one that the fans think is the best.

In most professional leagues (not college) the best are easy to ascertain. In Boxing if one really thinks about it...the fans determine who is the best. I guarantee you that no matter how we all chide the general level of poster on sites like this, you could easily predict the outcome of most fights by the polls that ask members who they think would win an upcoming fight.

Fans can be idiots but are more knowlegable than I think many give them credit for being. The perception that, for example, Lewis should fight Grant and not Jawney is logical. I cant even imagine trying to look at these events based on what fighters owe to each other. But as hard as that perspective would be... I would find it infinitely harder to imagine any organization in boxing, that sanctions events as being anything but self interested. Whether the WBA Or any group is "right" is as random as the flip of a coin as I see it. I just don't see the capacity of these organizations to act for the greater good... of boxing, of anything.

[Marchegiano]

See to me? I don't look at any of that. Whether it was Ruiz taking him to court, whether he owed something to Jawney. While I will never excuse a fan who harasses a celeb and when punched in the kisser says "waa they get paid a lot they are supposed to put up with me bugging them... I do think athletes owe fans something, and that something is to fight the best, the one that the fans think is the best.

In most professional leagues (not college) the best are easy to ascertain. In Boxing if one really thinks about it...the fans determine who is the best. I guarantee you that no matter how we all chide the general level of poster on sites like this, you could easily predict the outcome of most fights by the polls that ask members who they think would win an upcoming fight.

Fans can be idiots but are more knowlegable than I think many give them credit for being. The perception that, for example, Lewis should fight Grant and not Jawney is logical. I cant even imagine trying to look at these events based on what fighters owe to each other. But as hard as that perspective would be... I would find it infinitely harder to imagine any organization in boxing, that sanctions events as being anything but self interested. Whether the WBA Or any group is "right" is as random as the flip of a coin as I see it. I just don't see the capacity of these organizations to act for the greater good... of boxing, of anything.

I may be underplaying fan pressure here then. I will think on this while I look about.