Say What Ever You Will About James Toney The Man

[Archie_Leach]

I think saying "going from MW to HW winning Championship fights" is extremely misleading considering he didn't win a title at LHW or HW.

Only won the Lineal at MW. In a fight he got schooled in for large portions and was way behind on the cards.

And just think how many times he should have lost that belt....

[IronDanHamza]

And just think how many times he should have lost that belt....

Yeah, true.

At Middleweight other than his clear loss to Tiberi you can easily argue he lost to Williams, Sosa, McCallum x2, and Johnson.

I'll admit I had Toney beating Williams and Sosa and McCallum 1 a draw. But all 3 of those easily could have gone the other way. Easily.

I had Johnson beating him (close) and McCallum beating him (close).

Tiberi obviously won clearly.

Even Nunn, he was getting clearly beaten before the KO. Fair enough he got the KO all credit due but why people try and deny that I think is silly. He did not look good AT ALL in that fight.

There is not a single fight at MW where Toney looked overly impressive or dominant infact he looked poor in almost all of those fights. Johnson and McCallum 2 he was very fortunate to get those decisions.

And yet, this is the weight class he was apparently "in shape" for Yet all his poor performances there are because of the weight apparently. Literally makes no sense.

Then he moves up in weight, beats Iran Barkley and Prince Charles and the weight is no longer an issue. Then he get's totally embarrassed by Roy Jones and oh look, it's the weight again. Shocker.

So ok now he moves up again. Weight surely not an issue now? Loses to Griffin x2 and Drake Thadzi.

Maybe, just maybe, he's just not as good as these people have convinced themselves he is?

We are talking about a guy who was damn near dominated by Dave Tiberi in his prime...

[BattlingNelson]

Yeah, true.

At Middleweight other than his clear loss to Tiberi you can easily argue he lost to Williams, Sosa, McCallum x2, and Johnson.

I'll admit I had Toney beating Williams and Sosa and McCallum 1 a draw. But all 3 of those easily could have gone the other way. Easily.

I had Johnson beating him (close) and McCallum beating him (close).

Tiberi obviously won clearly.

Even Nunn, he was getting clearly beaten before the KO. Fair enough he got the KO all credit due but why people try and deny that I think is silly. He did not look good AT ALL in that fight.

There is not a single fight at MW where Toney looked overly impressive or dominant infact he looked poor in almost all of those fights. Johnson and McCallum 2 he was very fortunate to get those decisions.

And yet, this is the weight class he was apparently "in shape" for Yet all his poor performances there are because of the weight apparently. Literally makes no sense.

Then he moves up in weight, beats Iran Barkley and Prince Charles and the weight is no longer an issue. Then he get's totally embarrassed by Roy Jones and oh look, it's the weight again. Shocker.

So ok now he moves up again. Weight surely not an issue now? Loses to Griffin x2 and Drake Thadzi.

Maybe, just maybe, he's just not as good as these people have convinced themselves he is?

We are talking about a guy who was damn near dominated by Dave Tiberi in his prime...

Boy am I the only one being happy NOT to be a Toney fan after reading Dan's smack-down?

[GhostofDempsey]

One thing to keep in mind, Toney only had about 35 amateur fights before turning pro. He didn't have that amateur/Olympic pedigree that many other fighters had. Toney had a tremendous amount of potential, but he suffered from discipline problems outside the ring, particularly his weight and training camps. His best performances were against Barkley and Jirov. I would add Ruiz but the PED violation cost him the fight and his title.

[Anthony342]

Yeah, true.

At Middleweight other than his clear loss to Tiberi you can easily argue he lost to Williams, Sosa, McCallum x2, and Johnson.

I'll admit I had Toney beating Williams and Sosa and McCallum 1 a draw. But all 3 of those easily could have gone the other way. Easily.

I had Johnson beating him (close) and McCallum beating him (close).

Tiberi obviously won clearly.

Even Nunn, he was getting clearly beaten before the KO. Fair enough he got the KO all credit due but why people try and deny that I think is silly. He did not look good AT ALL in that fight.

There is not a single fight at MW where Toney looked overly impressive or dominant infact he looked poor in almost all of those fights. Johnson and McCallum 2 he was very fortunate to get those decisions.

And yet, this is the weight class he was apparently "in shape" for Yet all his poor performances there are because of the weight apparently. Literally makes no sense.

Then he moves up in weight, beats Iran Barkley and Prince Charles and the weight is no longer an issue. Then he get's totally embarrassed by Roy Jones and oh look, it's the weight again. Shocker.

So ok now he moves up again. Weight surely not an issue now? Loses to Griffin x2 and Drake Thadzi.

Maybe, just maybe, he's just not as good as these people have convinced themselves he is?

We are talking about a guy who was damn near dominated by Dave Tiberi in his prime...

Speaking of struggling with weight and stamina, I seem to remember watching a video of an early James Toney fight where he got a long rest period for some reason, which he really needed as he seemed to run out of gas early in that fight. I believe this was at 160 and was on ABC and he was lucky to win it with the extra rest. You or anyone here remember Toney's opponent for that fight.

HOF, not ATG I agree, but I still enjoyed at least some of his fights. I believe the first one I saw was on HBO where he had a nasty gash on his eyebrow and had to take out his opponent before the ref could stop the fight because of the cut and he did it. Who was that, against Williams?

It's crazy to think that both Roy Jones and James Toney have only finally retired within the last year, 2018 (Jones) and 2017 (Toney).

[IronDanHamza]

Speaking of struggling with weight and stamina, I seem to remember watching a video of an early James Toney fight where he got a long rest period for some reason, which he really needed as he seemed to run out of gas early in that fight. I believe this was at 160 and was on ABC and he was lucky to win it with the extra rest. You or anyone here remember Toney's opponent for that fight.

HOF, not ATG I agree, but I still enjoyed at least some of his fights. I believe the first one I saw was on HBO where he had a nasty gash on his eyebrow and had to take out his opponent before the ref could stop the fight because of the cut and he did it. Who was that, against Williams?

It's crazy to think that both Roy Jones and James Toney have only finally retired within the last year, 2018 (Jones) and 2017 (Toney).

I can't recall this. I know he seemed fatigued quite early against Tiberi but don't recall him getting an extended break. Not sure.

Yeah that was Prince Charles. Another fight he looked poor in before the KO. But just like Nunn, since he got the KO the actual performance is swept under the rug.

But like you, believe it or not I actually did enjoy Toney's fights and still do enjoy his style. I was a fan of Toney for years and much like other fans looked at his career with rose tinted glasses. It wasn't until I went back and analysed his career again years later without bias when I finally took his career for what it is. That's why it's so funny when people call me biased. It's actually the opposite. Once upon a time I was biased, in his favour!! If you asked me if Toney was a great fighter 10 years ago I'd have probably said yes.

Even still, I do enjoy his style. I always like that old school shoulder roll style. Same way I enjoy watching Ian Napa fights and George Benton.

I'm just honest about his career whereas his fans are not and when I say he's not great and support that argument with valid points they seem to have a hissy fit about it

[Archie_Leach]

Bingo! On point. I think Toney going from MW to HW and winning championship fights against stellar competition at times does make him one of the greats. His overall record wasn't great, but he surprised me many times ... and his fights were always good .... win or lose .... whether he shined or the other guy did

Please explain how Toney is like a fighter from 1918?

Those guys made weight on the day.
Steroids weren't even a thing yet.....

Yeah, true.

At Middleweight other than his clear loss to Tiberi you can easily argue he lost to Williams, Sosa, McCallum x2, and Johnson.

I'll admit I had Toney beating Williams and Sosa and McCallum 1 a draw. But all 3 of those easily could have gone the other way. Easily.

I had Johnson beating him (close) and McCallum beating him (close).

Tiberi obviously won clearly.

Even Nunn, he was getting clearly beaten before the KO. Fair enough he got the KO all credit due but why people try and deny that I think is silly. He did not look good AT ALL in that fight.

There is not a single fight at MW where Toney looked overly impressive or dominant infact he looked poor in almost all of those fights. Johnson and McCallum 2 he was very fortunate to get those decisions.

And yet, this is the weight class he was apparently "in shape" for Yet all his poor performances there are because of the weight apparently. Literally makes no sense.

Then he moves up in weight, beats Iran Barkley and Prince Charles and the weight is no longer an issue. Then he get's totally embarrassed by Roy Jones and oh look, it's the weight again. Shocker.

So ok now he moves up again. Weight surely not an issue now? Loses to Griffin x2 and Drake Thadzi.

Maybe, just maybe, he's just not as good as these people have convinced themselves he is?

We are talking about a guy who was damn near dominated by Dave Tiberi in his prime...

Good Post

Truth be told....
I thought he beat Sosa too.

Williams and Mccallum pwned him though.
The Mccallum fight is still one of my favorites...

It's actually the Tiberi fight I always found close.
But I won't argue with People who think It was clear for Tiberi.
Toney paced the rounds wrong. I believe that made him look
even worse to some that night..

The Thadzi fight always makes me laugh because Toney made
Thadzi look like a beast that night. lol
Beat Toney up at range and was schooling him on the inside to LOL.
Thadzi looked strong as **** that night...
lololololol

I do actually believe he was weight drained against Roy doe.
But he took the fight (money) so Toney should shut his goddamn mouth about that.

One thing to keep in mind, Toney only had about 35 amateur fights before turning pro. He didn't have that amateur/Olympic pedigree that many other fighters had.

35 am fights isn't exactly greenhorn material....

And why IS this a point anyway?

Toney didn't step up to world class in like his 5th fight or something. So why even bring it up.

but he suffered from discipline problems outside the ring, particularly his weight and training camps.

So????

He had the mentality of a bum??

His best performances were against Barkley and Jirov. I would add Ruiz but the PED violation cost him the fight and his title.

Barkley is made to order.
Jirov wasnt as one sided as people like to pretend.

We have to assume Ruiz would beat him in a fair fight.
Why else would he cheat? Right?

[GhostofDempsey]

Please explain how Toney is like a fighter from 1918?

Those guys made weight on the day.
Steroids weren't even a thing yet.....



Good Post

Truth be told....
I thought he beat Sosa too.

Williams and Mccallum pwned him though.
The Mccallum fight is still one of my favorites...

It's actually the Tiberi fight I always found close.
But I won't argue with People who think It was clear for Tiberi.
Toney paced the rounds wrong. I believe that made him look
even worse to some that night..

The Thadzi fight always makes me laugh because Toney made
Thadzi look like a beast that night. lol
Beat Toney up at range and was schooling him on the inside to LOL.
Thadzi looked strong as **** that night...
lololololol

I do actually believe he was weight drained against Roy doe.
But he took the fight (money) so Toney should shut his goddamn mouth about that.



35 am fights isn't exactly greenhorn material....

And why IS this a point anyway?

Toney didn't step up to world class in like his 5th fight or something. So why even bring it up.



So????

He had the mentality of a bum??




Barkley is made to order.
Jirov wasnt as one sided as people like to pretend.

We have to assume Ruiz would beat him in a fair fight.
Why else would he cheat? Right?

Considering you are an alt (Geralt69?) who used the very same signature photo just a few short months ago, I'll dismiss your post as either trolling or woefully biased. Either way, it doesn't warrant a serious response.

[Archie_Leach]

Considering you are an alt (Geralt69?) who used the very same signature photo just a few short months ago, I'll dismiss your post as either trolling or woefully biased. Either way, it doesn't warrant a serious response.

That's an awfully long winded way of admitting defeat....

Did you just realize mentioning the amount of amateur fights Toney has is meaningless? lol


Your like the 5th guy to prove my point.
Nobody is allowed to be a Toney critic unless they want to be labeled a biased troll and a racist....

Where was I being biased anyway?

When I said he beat Sosa?
Or was It when I said I believe him about being weight drained against Roy?

[Archie_Leach]

Considering you are an alt (Geralt69?) who used the very same signature photo just a few short months ago, I'll dismiss your post as either trolling or woefully biased. Either way, it doesn't warrant a serious response.

Geralt??

Like as in the Witcher??