The BoxingScene History Section Consensus Heavyweight Rankings

[Hawkins]

** 8 voters? Thought the purpose of this thread was to put together the BS top 10 heavy list: http://jeetwin360.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=135078

Easily a hundred lists, but apparently you chaps have your private little circle. No one wanted to bother to compile such a list because of objections raised whenever someone posted a list the little circle objected to.

I usually refrain from name calling but you sir, are an ass. Get off your high horse. It's not about private little circle, it was about compiling a list from fresh rankings from anyone who wanted to be involved. I'm not going to use someone's list unless I ask them because people's lists are always changing...and yes I asked you too but apparently you ignored it.

[LondonRingRules]

I usually refrain from name calling but you sir, are an ass. Get off your high horse. It's not about private little circle, it was about compiling a list from fresh rankings from anyone who wanted to be involved. I'm not going to use someone's list unless I ask them because people's lists are always changing...and yes I asked you too but apparently you ignored it.

** Apparently my high horse consists of picking your veracity apart.

I did provide a list, two in fact, the 2nd list long after your little circle started changing your minds daily with new lists. By that time nobody even remembered my original list and there was no movement to compile the lists save empty rhetoric.

That's fine since I'm certainly not going to bother with such a task, but then I ain't out there telling everyone how I'm gonna do this, that and other and then pull a no show.

[StarshipTrooper]

I usually refrain from name calling but you sir, are an ass. Get off your high horse. It's not about private little circle, it was about compiling a list from fresh rankings from anyone who wanted to be involved. I'm not going to use someone's list unless I ask them because people's lists are always changing...and yes I asked you too but apparently you ignored it.

"Private little circle" = the Boxing History section's elite posters. He's just jealous he isn't one of them. Unfortunately for him one actually has to have an intelligent perspective to be an elite poster and it's clear he burned out his brain cells on drugs long ago.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Holyfields acheivements is great and based solely on that he seems rated a bit low. If you, however, factor in the roids clouding his career then it's perhaps not as surprising.

But were the roids proven as was the case with Morrison, Mosely, and Vargas or are they just allegations?

Poet

[BattlingNelson]

But were the roids proven as was the case with Morrison, Mosely, and Vargas or are they just allegations?

Poet

As far as I know it's not proven. But anyone with half a brain knows he juiced from the Evan Fields story.

As a little side note I remember a story in The Ring after Holyfield had unified the CW title and considered moving up to HW. Holyfield then said that he would make plans with his 'sports-medicinist'. At the time doping was not a thought of issue in the US in general or boxing in particular, but over here doping was making headlines. I thought WTF was that???

I wrote The Ring's answerman asking what role such a person had but my letter wasn't answered. Of course there can be a hundred good reasons as to why it didn't but the term 'sports-medicinist' made me think.

Furthermore plenty of US athletes from the LA olympics has later been exposed as cheaters with blood-doping (early EPO). That goes for cycling and other sports. Still this doesn't mean the boxing class of '84 cheated.

[Grand Champ]

Yeah, I'm surprised Liston made the top 10 consensus, while Holmes was left completely in the cold.

That's stunning to me. I rank Holmes at #3 on my list.

I'm also surprised that Lewis was ranked so highly (he's #10 on my list), and that Tyson even made the top 10. (I consider Mike a near-ATG, just outisde my list at #11).

Interesting stuff.

Co sign.. I was really surprised by this to

[Hawkins]

** Apparently my high horse consists of picking your veracity apart.

I did provide a list, two in fact, the 2nd list long after your little circle started changing your minds daily with new lists. By that time nobody even remembered my original list and there was no movement to compile the lists save empty rhetoric.

That's fine since I'm certainly not going to bother with such a task, but then I ain't out there telling everyone how I'm gonna do this, that and other and then pull a no show.

How are you picking anything apart when you are making bull**** up out of thin air?

Pull a no show? Ok gramps just because I'm not 72 like you, and I don't wait around day after day for someone to continuously pick apart my ridiculous claims about great fighters ,don't start leveling anymore of your acrimonious bull****. Some of us have lives outside of a message board and hey, guess what? We can't always commit hours/days/weeks/months at a time like others.

[Hawkins]

"Private little circle" = the Boxing History section's elite posters. He's just jealous he isn't one of them. Unfortunately for him one actually has to have an intelligent perspective to be an elite poster and it's clear he burned out his brain cells on drugs long ago.

Poet

Obviously, or he has a severe case of dementia. I've tolerated his skewed views and accusations forever...just can't anymore. He always finds a way to twist words into meaning something other than how they were presented.....but of course you know that

[Kid McCoy]

As far as I know it's not proven. But anyone with half a brain knows he juiced from the Evan Fields story.

As a little side note I remember a story in The Ring after Holyfield had unified the CW title and considered moving up to HW. Holyfield then said that he would make plans with his 'sports-medicinist'. At the time doping was not a thought of issue in the US in general or boxing in particular, but over here doping was making headlines. I thought WTF was that???

I wrote The Ring's answerman asking what role such a person had but my letter wasn't answered. Of course there can be a hundred good reasons as to why it didn't but the term 'sports-medicinist' made me think.

Furthermore plenty of US athletes from the LA olympics has later been exposed as cheaters with blood-doping (early EPO). That goes for cycling and other sports. Still this doesn't mean the boxing class of '84 cheated.

Nothing proven, but there's some circumstantial evidence against Holyfield. The alarm bells should have been ringing when he hired former Mr Olympia winner Lee Haney as a personal trainer. Then there's the way he gassed in several fights during the 90s, loss of stamina being a well-known side-effect for roid users, and especially telling for a fighter previously known for having excellent stamina. Then as you say there was the "Evan Fields" affair.

And then finally there's the change in his physique when he moved up. He was ripped to the bone. It's especially hard to add that amount of muscle mass naturally given the nature of boxing training and the amount of cardio work involved. Compare with Michael Moorer's fairly soft physique when he moved up.

Like I said, not proven, but there are various reasons to be su****ious.

[LondonRingRules]

Holmes has indeed always been underrated. I guess that's often what happens when you follow a legend in his own time. It happened after Dempsey/Tunney, Marciano, Ali and Tyson.

Holyfields acheivements is great and based solely on that he seems rated a bit low. If you, however, factor in the roids clouding his career then it's perhaps not as surprising.

** Following your model, apparently it happens to the Klitschko brothers, being underrated after following the great Lewis.

As to the Holy One's achievements, I'd be interested to know what part of his 10-7-2 title record you find great. Tyson handed off a hard earned unified title to Buster who could hardly be arsed to train for the Holy One who only made 3 defenses against what was derided as terribly weak competition before being blown out by Bowe.

Bowe of course no more than a fly by nighter in the division. He sold the title off piecemeal to finance the kitchen addition on his bedroom. And so on and so forth, yet, according to the Holy One, he fights on in a never ending serial quest of unification fantasies, his Holy Grail.

Ignoring the 'roid controversies, I'm trying to see how he could possibly be underrated. Ezzard Charles is 9-4 in heavy title bouts with a packed ring full of HOF greats he beat before he ever stuck a toe in his storied heavy career, yet somehow on these modern lists I always see the Holy One listed over Charles.

What's up with that? Is it really true that the lists are a joke if this kind of travesty can occur?