Benitez vs Hearns could have gone either way

[them_apples]

I believe that the advent of plastic football helmets in the mid 1950s and players/coachs using it as an attack weapon (especially among linemen who crack helmets on every play) for 50 years shows us that the real cause of pugilistic dementia MAYBE is the extended/extensive minor blows taken during endless sparing sessions. The leather protective helmet and 18 oz training glove is just the right (wrong) formula to insure that a fighter can take hundreds of small blows daily without being "hurt."

When these kids start young that's just too many small blows to the head.

I’ve heard this before too, but I think (in my opinion) like everything that effects the human body - that you can recover from anything that doesn’t permanently damage you. Like how some rockstars did drugs for 50 years and are still alive and in decent health, reason being : they didn’t overdose, which causes the real irreversible damage.

on the topic of continuous sparring, I would think that comes about that if you spar TOO much, and especially hard - that the damage eventually would start to erode the brain. If one were to simply take weekends off from sparring this might mean a world of a difference by allowing your body to heal and return to its stronger state. Because the nature of the body is cells are dying and replacing themselves constantly according to your bodys natural blueprint (dna).

if you look at someone like James Toney, who seemingly never lost his legs his entire career even when fighting men twice his size - he’s also about as punchy a fighter from the 40s in retirement, but also was known to spar every day, and for many, many rounds. Sometimes sparring in the morning and the evening. This would make him obviously really sharp skillwise and probably quite durable both physically and in the sense of anticipating punches because of how comfortable he was in the ring, obv at the cost of his health.

once again though, not everyone who did this got severe brain damage. Chavez for example, Duran and Hagler were all known to spar 100s of rounds in camp and don’t show signs of severe brain damage.

which leads me to conclude, brain damage is just that, you either got it or you didn’t and it’s entirely circumstantial. Maybe Toney took a terrible shot in 1999 in sparring, concussed him - and he got in the ring the next day because of his pride and got hit even more while he should have been recovering. Little things like that might be the real deciding factor. Well never know but sometimes it’s simple. I can say from my own sparring experience that some days depending on who it is, you won’t feel the shots at all and could be reading a book 3 hours later. I really don’t think doing that 5 days a week would lead to severe brain damage, but mix a couple nasty sessions in there and maybe so?

[Willie Pep 229]

I’ve heard this before too, but I think (in my opinion) like everything that effects the human body - that you can recover from anything that doesn’t permanently damage you. Like how some rockstars did drugs for 50 years and are still alive and in decent health, reason being : they didn’t overdose, which causes the real irreversible damage.

on the topic of continuous sparring, I would think that comes about that if you spar TOO much, and especially hard - that the damage eventually would start to erode the brain. If one were to simply take weekends off from sparring this might mean a world of a difference by allowing your body to heal and return to its stronger state. Because the nature of the body is cells are dying and replacing themselves constantly according to your bodys natural blueprint (dna).

if you look at someone like James Toney, who seemingly never lost his legs his entire career even when fighting men twice his size - he’s also about as punchy a fighter from the 40s in retirement, but also was known to spar every day, and for many, many rounds. Sometimes sparring in the morning and the evening. This would make him obviously really sharp skillwise and probably quite durable both physically and in the sense of anticipating punches because of how comfortable he was in the ring, obv at the cost of his health.

once again though, not everyone who did this got severe brain damage. Chavez for example, Duran and Hagler were all known to spar 100s of rounds in camp and don’t show signs of severe brain damage.

which leads me to conclude, brain damage is just that, you either got it or you didn’t and it’s entirely circumstantial. Maybe Toney took a terrible shot in 1999 in sparring, concussed him - and he got in the ring the next day because of his pride and got hit even more while he should have been recovering. Little things like that might be the real deciding factor. Well never know but sometimes it’s simple. I can say from my own sparring experience that some days depending on who it is, you won’t feel the shots at all and could be reading a book 3 hours later. I really don’t think doing that 5 days a week would lead to severe brain damage, but mix a couple nasty sessions in there and maybe so?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe damaged brain cells heal. I believe even 'light' sparing (LOL whatever the hell that is) if continuous will cause long term damage.

I would rather a fighter be knock out cold five times in a ten year career than lightly spar everyday (with weekends off) for the same period of time.

Notice in the NFL how it is the linemen who take a limited (one yard blow) to the head on every play and NOT the wider receivers, who get knocked out cold every once in a while, who are showing the effects today.

[GhostofDempsey]

I have a theory that boxers who have been boxing since they were little kids often have hidden, long-standing concussions. Too may boxers with glass chins were child boxers. For a guy known as el radar, child boxer Benitez sure got knocked down a lot as a pro, and faded relatively fast. Terry Norris could have been a great boxer, if not for a highly glass chin. Child boxer Roy Jones became a great boxer anyway, but it is hard to deny that he had a weak chin, when we finally got to see it tested.

Not all child boxers get hidden concussions early that affect their careers mightily. Trinidad had a decent chin with no associated problems.

Give me more examples of both, if you can, lads.

It stands to reason that the more punches you take to the head, the more cumulative damage you will suffer to your brain. Especially while your brain is still developing in your youth. There are many fighters who began fighting in childhood and have great chins; GGG, Hagler, Canelo, Mosley, to name a few. There are too many variables, but ultimately, a good chin relies upon physical characteristics and learning how to roll with a punch. Even the great LaMotta wasn't taking the full force of those punches on the chin most of the time, he "caught" them and rolled with them.

[The Old LefHook]

Toney is as punch drunk as a woodpecker.

[them_apples]

It stands to reason that the more punches you take to the head, the more cumulative damage you will suffer to your brain. Especially while your brain is still developing in your youth. There are many fighters who began fighting in childhood and have great chins; GGG, Hagler, Canelo, Mosley, to name a few. There are too many variables, but ultimately, a good chin relies upon physical characteristics and learning how to roll with a punch. Even the great LaMotta wasn't taking the full force of those punches on the chin most of the time, he "caught" them and rolled with them.

Well sparring every day is one thing. Sparring at Kronk in the 80s every day is another. Certainly getting battered hard about the head every day is going to cause more damage in the long run.

the comparison between sparring and not getting hurt every day, and sparring hard every day is probably the more realistic view as to why the damage is so bad.

if we use Toney as an example again, he was sparring all out, every day for hours.

But the part about riding with the punches is absolutely true. Its the most important skill lost in boxing. It turns punches into pushes. Since impact is the only thing that actually defines a punch.

Foreman in the 90s was actually materfully good at riding the punches, but everyone thinks he was eating them flush. I remember it was Holyfield that even mentioned it, and when you watch close enough you see its true. He pulls with the shot almost on contact, its that quick and subtle. It makes sense though because his entire career he practiced it in both the 70s and 90s

[QueensburyRules]

Toney is as punch drunk as a woodpecker.

- - How much punch could a Woodpecker punch if a Woodpecker could punch punch?

[markusmod]

- - How much punch could a Woodpecker punch if a Woodpecker could punch punch?

Toney has been tough to understand for the last 20 years.