Your Top 5 At Middleweight?

[tokon]

Damn it, for a hall of fame poster you can be a real pain in the butt.

Nash's humour tends to be an acquired taste sir. Maybe not to everyone's taste, and obviously not to OldLeftHooks, however it is this aspect of his boxing knowledge that has seen him elevated to HOF status.

[Ivich]

Yes, and lost to him twice at an old age, and got his only win on a one punch save. He was old, too old for Fullmer, and for the names you mentioned above. So if the guy's MW career was dominated by fights when he was 'old' why are you putting him at the top of the MW list?

He isn't, at MW, the prefection he was at WW.

Prime Robinson still too much for billy goat Fullmer.

[The Old LefHook]

I don't think there is anyone left in the northern hemisphere who doesn't know Robinson's prime was at welterweight and not middleweight. The reason for that is likely because he was stonewalled for so long in getting his welterweight title shot. It is irrelevant whether he was in his prime or not, BUT as in all mythical matches, we will choose the best middleweight Robinson on the night he beat LaMotta for the middleweight title. That is the only Robinson who is going to be fighting Hagler, Monzon and Ketchel et al, for honors as the greatest middleweight.

In essence, there is no need to even bring Robinson's later record into the conversation--it has not even happened yet, and the only Robinson who will be fighting is the one who fought the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre. Please explain to me how his record against Fullmer when he was five years and several retirements older, would have any impact on who wins a mythical match up of primes. I only consider the format of who-beats-whom to evaluate who is greater. I do not include other factors like length of reign, credit to the sport, etc. It is all about who wins on the night, nothing else for me. Can your Greb beat my Robinson? You are not choosing a washed up, half blind Greb, I am certain of it. And rest assured I am not bringing the Robinson who fought Fullmer.

Who is greater (in my book) is determined by who kicks whom's ass, with both at their best for the weight. It really doesn't matter what happened to them later, how long they held the title, how many defenses they made, how long they were at their peak, etc., except as minor ancillary information often misleading. You can ascertain from the later period that he certainly had a great chin and capacity for punishment. But you gain no information on how fast he was, for instance, or what his stamina was like.

If someone's choice were Roy Jones, that would be legitimate under my sole criterion of whose ass gets kicked, as well as I can envision it.

It is all about who wins, for me.

Greatness in other aspects of holding the title I ignore. Someone could be a great champion with regards to defending his title regularly against the best in the division and not be good enough for this tournament.. Otherwise, one must say at some point that a guy who was the greatest champion but not the greatest fighter, must also be the greater fighter. Every fight in the tournament will be excruciatingly rough and tough, unless someone scores an early KO, which I doubt. These boys' chins were thoroughly tested. Expect a lot of decisions and few KOs. Our boys are that good! No other division could make a tournament this dramatic IMO. No one will be a favorite unless you add up the bets

The but slightly shopworn version of Robby on Feb. 14, 1951 is good enough to do the job, I say. The toll will be heavy of course. Now, that Robinson will have more experience than either Hagler or Monzon at any stage of their careers. With Greb, it depends on which Greb you are choosing.

[markusmod]

Prime Robinson still too much for billy goat Fullmer.

I can go with this take.

[Ivich]

You are right, prime SRR was not at MW; his best years were at welter, and probably super welter had the division existed. And I agree your in a tough spot arguing against SRR (who is/was it around here who would always argue SRR isn't even top 15 AT P4P)?

I guess it depends on what you consider MW Robinson, do you count all his fights in the 150s toward his MW work? There was no super welter at the time, so maybe yes? If so, then I think he has enough body of work at MW, even if a lot of it is against mid level competition, to get a clear evaluation of him without having to look too deeply at his later years.

Personally I count any guy he beat who was a middleweight at the time Ray fought them regardless of what Ray weighed.