Why not Holmes over Ali?

[Dr. Z]

Larry has the better record under 35.

He beat more contenders in the ring magazine's top ten*

Holmes had the best all time jab. Like Ali he had a good right cross. Unlike Ali, he had a decent body attack, a left hook, and uppercut! A superior skilled fighter, Larry was. Ali was more limited in attack.

He was not floored by non top ten fighters! Ali was down from them quite a few times . IMO Holmes had a slightly better chin.

Holmes did not rest on the ropes, gas or or punch himself out as an under 40 year old fighter. Ali did.

Ali had major issues with good jabbers ( Jones, Norton, Young, Lyle, Holmes ) at all stages of his career from multiple men. Hmmm, Holmes had a great jab.



But, but, but Ali beat Foreman! Ah yes, Forman ducked Homles in the 70's and 90's. But he fought Jimmy Young. And Young whipped him, and was ROBBED on the official score cards vs Ali. Sub in Holmes for Young and Boxing has a new #1 fighter for sure.

But, but, but, Holmes beat an old Ali. Yes-- he did. Looking at the match Ali did not win one 30 second segment of the nine rounds. Holmes did not want to hurt Ali, but he would have ... Dundee prevented him from being knocked out by TKO or KO. The fight ended with Ali one his stool.

So how is #1? Fan's can clutch at Joe Louis. But putting him aside, the real question is this. What year can Holmes beat Ali? 1980 we know. 1979? yep. 1978? Very likely. 1977? Well Let's say Ali fought Holmes then. Who do you like? I say Larry does a Jimmy Young and ten some on Ali wins a SD with one judges card being suspect for Ali the other two clearly going for Holmes. Holmes via split decision.


Ali kicked Holmes out of his camps in the mid 1970's because Holmes was too fast for him. That is the reason. Those are the facts. Those gym wars happened. Think about that.

So what did Ali do clearly better than Holmes? I'll be fair. READY? Ali was a better clincher in the ring and a much better talker outside of it. And Ali tended to be gifted on the cards, while Holmes wasn't.

So what is your take on this question? I often leanr the most from knowledgeable fans who disagree with me, and give me some words or facts I did not think about.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Was U da Tubby Lar footwear that got smashed by Rocky's jockstrap?

George who is the same age as Tubby Lar was always fighting better fighters and higher ranked during their few years of overlap

The public was never interested in Foreman vs Tubby Lar, another reason the fight was never made sorta like U vs a turnip. Noone want to see a rutabaga vs a turnip...NOONE!!!

[JAB5239]

Larry has the better record under 35.

He beat more contenders in the ring ****zine's top ten*

Holmes had the best all time jab. Like Ali he had a good right cross. Unlike Ali, he had a decent body attack, a left hook, and uppercut! A superior skilled fighter, Larry was. Ali was more limited in attack.

He was not floored by non top ten fighters! Ali was down from them quite a few times . IMO Holmes had a slightly better chin.

Holmes did not rest on the ropes, gas or or punch himself out as an under 40 year old fighter. Ali did.

Ali had major issues with good jabbers ( Jones, Norton, Young, Lyle, Holmes ) at all stages of his career from multiple men. Hmmm, Holmes had a great jab.



But, but, but Ali beat Foreman! Ah yes, Forman ducked Homles in the 70's and 90's. But he fought Jimmy Young. And Young whipped him, and was ROBBED on the official score cards vs Ali. Sub in Holmes for Young and Boxing has a new #1 fighter for sure.

But, but, but, Holmes beat an old Ali. Yes-- he did. Looking at the match Ali did not win one 30 second segment of the nine rounds. Holmes did not want to hurt Ali, but he would have ... Dundee prevented him from being knocked out by TKO or KO. The fight ended with Ali one his stool.

So how is #1? Fan's can clutch at Joe Louis. But putting him aside, the real question is this. What year can Holmes beat Ali? 1980 we know. 1979? yep. 1978? Very likely. 1977? Well Let's say Ali fought Holmes then. Who do you like? I say Larry does a Jimmy Young and ten some on Ali wins a SD with one judges card being suspect for Ali the other two clearly going for Holmes. Holmes via split decision.


Ali kicked Holmes out of his camps in the mid 1970's because Holmes was too fast for him. That is the reason. Those are the facts. Those gym wars happened. Think about that.

So what did Ali do clearly better than Holmes? I'll be fair. READY? Ali was a better clincher in the ring and a much better talker outside of it. And Ali tended to be gifted on the cards, while Holmes wasn't.

So what is your take on this question? I often leanr the most from knowledgeable fans who disagree with me, and give me some words or facts I did not think about.

I've never heard Ali kicked Holmes out of any fight camp. Don't recall Holmes ever mentioning this in his autobiography. He did kick Roy Williams out when Williams demanded to get paid for an undercard fight that got scratched, if memory serves.

[Dr. Z]

I've never heard Ali kicked Holmes out of any fight camp. Don't recall Holmes ever mentioning this in his autobiography. He did kick Roy Williams out when Williams demanded to get paid for an undercard fight that got scratched, if memory serves.

Holmes mentions it.

[JAB5239]

Holmes mentions it.

Where and when? I've been looking for anything I can find that says this and keep coming up with nothing of the sort. Also, Holmes worked with Ali until 1975, Larry started with him as an amateur and left to make his own name when he was still a fledgling pro with less than 20 fights. Watching video of Holmes sparring Ali for the Rumble in the jungle Holmes is doing exactly what a sparring partner is supposed to do, put pressure on the guy preparing to fighter to sharpen him up and get him conditioned. At no time does he look to fast for Ali, and considering their friendship and Ali being a mentor I'm just finding this a little difficult to believe. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'd like to see a little more than just "Holmes mentions it".

[Dr. Z]

Where and when? I've been looking for anything I can find that says this and keep coming up with nothing of the sort. Also, Holmes worked with Ali until 1975, Larry started with him as an amateur and left to make his own name when he was still a fledgling pro with less than 20 fights. Watching video of Holmes sparring Ali for the Rumble in the jungle Holmes is doing exactly what a sparring partner is supposed to do, put pressure on the guy preparing to fighter to sharpen him up and get him conditioned. At no time does he look to fast for Ali, and considering their friendship and Ali being a mentor I'm just finding this a little difficult to believe. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'd like to see a little more than just "Holmes mentions it".

Here's what I found.

[JAB5239]

Here's what I found.

No where in that video does Holmes ever say Ali kicked him out of trying camp for being to fast. You've been just allowed back and you're already making things up again.

[Bronson66]

Larry has the better record under 35.

He beat more contenders in the ring ****zine's top ten*

Holmes had the best all time jab. Like Ali he had a good right cross. Unlike Ali, he had a decent body attack, a left hook, and uppercut! A superior skilled fighter, Larry was. Ali was more limited in attack.

He was not floored by non top ten fighters! Ali was down from them quite a few times . IMO Holmes had a slightly better chin.

Holmes did not rest on the ropes, gas or or punch himself out as an under 40 year old fighter. Ali did.

Ali had major issues with good jabbers ( Jones, Norton, Young, Lyle, Holmes ) at all stages of his career from multiple men. Hmmm, Holmes had a great jab.



But, but, but Ali beat Foreman! Ah yes, Forman ducked Homles in the 70's and 90's. But he fought Jimmy Young. And Young whipped him, and was ROBBED on the official score cards vs Ali. Sub in Holmes for Young and Boxing has a new #1 fighter for sure.

But, but, but, Holmes beat an old Ali. Yes-- he did. Looking at the match Ali did not win one 30 second segment of the nine rounds. Holmes did not want to hurt Ali, but he would have ... Dundee prevented him from being knocked out by TKO or KO. The fight ended with Ali one his stool.

So how is #1? Fan's can clutch at Joe Louis. But putting him aside, the real question is this. What year can Holmes beat Ali? 1980 we know. 1979? yep. 1978? Very likely. 1977? Well Let's say Ali fought Holmes then. Who do you like? I say Larry does a Jimmy Young and ten some on Ali wins a SD with one judges card being suspect for Ali the other two clearly going for Holmes. Holmes via split decision.


Ali kicked Holmes out of his camps in the mid 1970's because Holmes was too fast for him. That is the reason. Those are the facts. Those gym wars happened. Think about that.

So what did Ali do clearly better than Holmes? I'll be fair. READY? Ali was a better clincher in the ring and a much better talker outside of it. And Ali tended to be gifted on the cards, while Holmes wasn't.

So what is your take on this question? I often leanr the most from knowledgeable fans who disagree with me, and give me some words or facts I did not think about.

Its reasonable for anyone to say there isn't a hairs breath between Ali and Holmes for talent ,but not for the reasons quoted,simply because they are false

Ali beat over 30 Ring ranked contenders and champions that's over twice as many as Holmes.
Strike One!

Ali was only floored by 1 non Ring top ten ranked fighter Sonny Banks . Cooper was no 10.Wepner ,[ if anyone is desperate enough to count that,] was no9 Frazier was Champ.

Holmes was floored by unranked Kevin Isaac.and unranked Renaldo Snipes!
StrikeTwo!

Holmes did not have a good left hook.Ali floored and ko'd iron chinned Bonavena with left hooks.
Strike Three!

Holmes had major issues with Carl Williams jab and Ken Norton's jab. Newsflash everyone has issues with great jabbers! Strike Four!

Holmes was not sacked by Ali ,he and his then manager decided it was time to try and make there way and establish Larry in the division and left voluntarily.Holmes has spoken about this on video several times.
Strike Five!

Holmes had a slightly better chin? Did he? Was it tested against Foreman,Lyle, Frazier,Liston? Shavers dropped a prime Holmes,he couldn't drop a past prime Ali.
Strike Six!
You have a well established reputation for knocking Ali and this opening salvo on your return is no different to the many,many others, full of false claims you eagerly supply the forum with.
The problem is after being corrected you wait a suitable interlude and then compulsively repeat them again,so no,you don't learn,not anything.
Not an au****ious return by you, but certainly a very predictable one!

[Bronson66]

No where in that video does Holmes ever say Ali kicked him out of trying camp for being to fast. You've been just allowed back and you're already making things up again.

Joe Louis ,and Jack Johnson fans should prepare themselves for an onslaught of lies and defamation about them.in the near future.
A Leopard does not change its spots .
And a hating liar does not stop hating and lying.

[Dr. Z]

No where in that video does Holmes ever say Ali kicked him out of trying camp for being to fast. You've been just allowed back and you're already making things up again.

Read facing Ali, Cowboy