Sonny Liston one of the greatest

[JAB5239]

Bryd was NOT ranked when he beat Vitali,as you rightly stated his loss to Ike had taken him out of the rankings.Byrd was not ranked again until after he beat Vitali. We have been over this several times and Cliff Rold corrected several assertions made by You Know Who.
Vitali defended against 5 Ring ranked men,Adamek,Gomez,Sanders ,Peter, and Kirk Johnson.Vitali never defended against the number 1 challenger
I don't know why Vitali has crept into thread on Liston but, since he has ,his resume does not stand comparison to Sonny's and, as far as I am aware no reputable boxing historian ranks him in their top ten.

Liston beat Ring ranked men 8 times. Patterson,DeJohn,Folley.Harris,Machen.Valdes.Hunte r,and he defended against the number 1 challenger twice. Patterson and Ali.
The statement that no one famous ranks Liston in their top ten is total rubbish. The Ring in2017 ranked Liston number 10.Their contributors to the list included many trainers, champions and boxing writers.
For example Herb Goldman put Liston at number2,Richard O Brien ,Senior Editor of Sports Illustrated placed Liston at number3 , Alfie Hamer of Sportster has Liston at number3.Jim Jacobs had Liston in the top 4,Gerald Suster "Champions Of the Ring",has Liston in his top ten,as did Jerry Izenberg and Terry Leigh Lye. Bert Sugar is certainly famous if not particularly respected, he had Liston at no8 .Reg Gutteridge both famous and respected had Liston in his top ten, as did Harry Carpenter and the recently deceased Colin Hart.
Your points on the young, inexperienced Liston ,being thrown in with Summerlin and the 7th ranked Lhvy Marshall,are well taken,but we know they will be ignored,as the ability to perceive context does not figure in the make up of the poster you are debating and winning against.
What relevance demands for others posters lists has to any debate , as in a hostage for hostage deal, escapes me entirely! Then again we are looking for a logical thought process to argue against and that has never been forthcoming!
You are again correct when discussing who is considered the greater fighter.
The Ring 2017 had them as follows.
1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Johnson
4.Marciano.
5. Holmes.
6.Dempsey
7.Foreman
8. Frazier
9.Tyson
10.Liston

Wlad was no16 .
Vitali no 17.

I brought ol' Vits up to show how convoluted his thinking is. He likes to make blanket statements but not back them up. Then you get "i could show you", but only if you do this" type of things. It borders on the ridiculous. Nearly every ranking I've seen, if not all, from 1980 until today has Liston in the top 10. Rarely has there been a heavyweight that tore the the division the way he did. Trying to hold a loss against Marshall in his seventh fight (avenged) and getting stopped by Martin in his second to last fight ludicrous. My point was, it's not like he quit and didn't avenge. Vits did, but that seems to be okay with him. And the Martin fight couldn't be avenged because Martin never fought again because of a detached retina Liston caused, but also because Sonny was dead a year later. Context is important, yet impossible for this guy to understand.

[JAB5239]

i think that with vitali people think he was never really troubled in his career and always looked in control. that is why people rank him, but through injury he never really had those huge pay per view nights that create great fighters. i think we see him as unlucky to get injured but he never looked too troubled in the fights he did have. it makes some of us think he could beat any man in the ring such was his size and skills. when he retired in that fight he had dislocated his shoulder. it is ****** to say things like "going out on his shield and a quitter"
no one can fight with a dislocated shoulder it is silly to think any man can.
that is all. class dismissed!

I don't know bro. If his fans thought he was so far up he could have coasted the rest of the way. On top of that he didn't even try to rematch. I saw Danny Williams score a knockout after suffering a dislocated shoulder against Mark Potter.

[Biledriver]

Bryd was NOT ranked when he beat Vitali,as you rightly stated his loss to Ike had taken him out of the rankings.Byrd was not ranked again until after he beat Vitali. We have been over this several times and Cliff Rold corrected several assertions made by You Know Who.
Vitali defended against 5 Ring ranked men,Adamek,Gomez,Sanders ,Peter, and Kirk Johnson.Vitali never defended against the number 1 challenger
I don't know why Vitali has crept into a thread on Liston but, since he has ,his resume does not stand comparison to Sonny's and, as far as I am aware no reputable boxing historian ranks him in their top ten.

Liston beat Ring ranked men 8 times. Patterson,DeJohn,Folley.Harris,Machen.Valdes.Hunte r,and he defended against the number 1 challenger twice. Patterson and Ali.
The statement that no one famous ranks Liston in their top ten is total rubbish. The Ring in2017 ranked Liston number 10.Their contributors to the list included many trainers, champions and boxing writers.
For example Herb Goldman put Liston at number2,Richard O Brien ,Senior Editor of Sports Illustrated placed Liston at number3 , Alfie Hamer of Sportster has Liston at number3.Jim Jacobs had Liston in the top 4,Gerald Suster "Champions Of the Ring",has Liston in his top ten,as did Jerry Izenberg and Terry Leigh Lye. Bert Sugar is certainly famous if not particularly respected, he had Liston at no8 .Reg Gutteridge both famous and respected had Liston in his top ten, as did Harry Carpenter and the recently deceased Colin Hart.
Your points on the young, inexperienced Liston ,being thrown in with Summerlin and the 7th ranked Lhvy Marshall,are well taken,but we know they will be ignored,as the ability to perceive context does not figure in the make up of the poster you are debating and winning against.

You arer also correct about Holmes voluntarily leaving ali's camp as a sparring partner to strike out on his own.Larry has many times confirmed this and I've posted his words on this myself.
What relevance demands for others posters lists has to any debate , as in a hostage for hostage deal, escapes me entirely! Then again we are looking for a logical thought process to argue against and that has never been forthcoming!
You are again correct when discussing who is considered the greater fighter.
The Ring 2017 had them as follows.
1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Johnson
4.Marciano.
5. Holmes.
6.Dempsey
7.Foreman
8. Frazier
9.Tyson
10.Liston

Wlad was no16 .
Vitali no 17.

Great post! Spittin' facts and truth-bombs!

[QueensburyRules]

You can't reason because you're unreasonable. You want to compare Listons losses? Marty Marshall. Had his jaw broke and KEPT fighting anyway, then avenged that loss in a rematch. Vits quit against Byrd. No rematch. Liston got stretched in his second to last fight at AT LEAST 38 years old, probably older, but I have no proof of that. Vits got his face torn of by Lewis who was just shy of 38 and in his last fight. Vits never beat a lineal champion, Liston did. Vits not only didn't clean out the division, he let his brother fight the best fighters. Liston cleared out the division except for guys like Johansson who admitted they would cross the road if the saw Sonny coming.

why do you need my list? You've seen where I tank Liston. My list has nothing to do with this thread, though I would say his ranking does.

And who is hiding behind "unknown facts"? Would that be you calling Liston a cheater, yet with no tangible evidence.

There is a reason not only people like myself and history rate Liston not only highly, but over Vits. If you were just a little more reasonable you might get it.

- - Vits and Wlad rising to the top as ol'timers are dropping out. As soon as IBRO becomes more than a good ol'boys' club they will occupy their rightful place well above one punched to Bolivia via Timbuktu Lewie.

[max baer]

- - Vits and Wlad rising to the top as ol'timers are dropping out. As soon as IBRO becomes more than a good ol'boys' club they will occupy their rightful place well above one punched to Bolivia via Timbuktu Lewie.

this is ibro's rankings! all time hw's.

[JAB5239]

- - Vits and Wlad rising to the top as ol'timers are dropping out. As soon as IBRO becomes more than a good ol'boys' club they will occupy their rightful place well above one punched to Bolivia via Timbuktu Lewie.

I'd take that bet any day of the week.

[QueensburyRules]

I'd take that bet any day of the week.

- - I don't bet much less bet with punchdrunks.

[Anomalocaris]

One thing am certain of, no way Mike Tyson is getting through that polaxing jab without severe damage, and there is only one fighter being intimidated in this one and it's not Charles 'Sonny' Liston.

Tyson mugged old ladies.

Liston fought hardened racist cops with billy clubs and deposited one headfirst into a trashcan.

[JAB5239]

- - I don't bet much less bet with punchdrunks.

Good, because you'd lose.

[BKM-]

One thing am certain of, no way Mike Tyson is getting through that polaxing jab without severe damage, and there is only one fighter being intimidated in this one and it's not Charles 'Sonny' Liston.

Tyson mugged old ladies.

Liston fought hardened racist cops with billy clubs and deposited one headfirst into a trashcan.

Good points. Perhaps another comparison is how both men treated the other *** which is very telling about their characters. We all know Tyson beat up his first wife and wouldn't take no for an answer in several other cases. Liston as far as I know adored his wife and never laid a hand on her if I'm not mistaken(and that was more common in his era), and was known to be very nice to the vulnerable of society like children, the elderly etc. Tyson wants to eat them or rob them.