List your top 5 middleweights of all-time

[CarlosG815]

What's wrong with Hopkins on anyone's list? He's definitely an all-time great middleweight. 20 title defenses and defeated the likes of DLH, Trinidad and G. Johnson in great fashion.

Good call. I forgot about Johnson, and he also took Joe C to a split D.

[JAB5239]

B Hop would destroy Harry Greb, who is 3 on your list. He also beat Trinidad, De La Hoya, Tarver, Joppy, Winky, and Pavlik.

Come off it, dude. Greb beat Tunney and Walker and you're gonna hate on other people's list? It's all opinion and yours isn't better than anyone else's.

With all due respect, Greb fought a who's who of great fighters that puts Hopkins resume to shame. Flowers, Norfolk, Laughran, Gibbons, and McTigue amongst other.

[CarlosG815]

With all due respect, Greb fought a who's who of great fighters that puts Hopkins resume to shame. Flowers, Norfolk, Laughran, Gibbons, and McTigue amongst other.

We're talking about 70 years of difference in era's, so you can't talk like the people fighting in the 1910's and 1920's, where colored fighters were scarce, and say that the competition in his era was tougher. That's bull**** and baseless. Regardless of how many out of shape pub hoppers he fought.

That's why I started that last thread. The fact is that in modern era's, we have no way of knowing how Greb would do. But we do know this. Fighters that B Hop have faced have had access to years of knowledge, training, nutrition, OPPORTUNITY, etc...

How do you see these fights playing out, and explain.

Greb vs Hopkins
Greb vs Roy Jones Jr
Greb vs Trinidad
Greb vs De La Hoya
Greb vs Tarver

Those are guys on Hopkin's resume, I do not believe you've backed up your argument that Greb's resume is so much more polished than B Hops.

[Oasis_Lad]

Hagler
Monzon
Robinson
Greb
Ketchel

[Obama]

Greb
Robinson
O'Brien
Langford
Hagler/Hopkins

Honorable Mention: Ketchel, Monzon, Fitzsimmons

[#1Assassin]

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Carlos Monzon
5. Sam Langford

Honorable Mention: Greb, Ketchel, McCallum, Toney, Tiger etc

[Obama]

I'd just like to point out that O'Brien bested 5 natural MW HOFers @ or near the MW limit. No one else mentioned can claim such a thing.

[BEEHOP]

Robinson
Hopkins
Hagler

[crold1]

in the 1910's and 1920's, where colored fighters were scarce

Maybe in terms if title opportunities but in every other way that's an absurd comment. There were a TON of non-Anglo fighters in that and every time. And to Greb's credit, he drew no color line (Norfolk and Flowers multiple times apiece just to start). He fought, and beat almost, everyone in a superior Middleweight era to Hopkins's time. Not taking anything from BHop; GREAT Middleweight (though many old timers disagree with me on that). But his era was one of the weakest in Middleweight history. That's really the bottom line despite a lack of film.

Here's my take on Greb both at Light Heavyweight and Middleweight from previous lists:

Light Heavyweight: http://jeetwin360.com/?m=show&id=23255

11) Harry Greb (1913-26): More recalled for his greatness at Middleweight, the “Pittsburgh Windmill” was perhaps just as good at Light Heavyweight...career mark of 105-8-3, 48 KO, 183 no decisions…given his unreal volume of fights, and a lack of fight film, Greb can be hard to assess beyond written accounts and the record he left behind but, oh my, what a record!…often fighting between the Middleweight and Light Heavyweight limits, Greb posted official wins over Light Heavy champs Tommy Loughran and Jimmy Slattery, Hall of Famer Tommy Gibbons…he also posted news wins over past, present and future champs Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Maxie Rosenbloom and Mike McTigue and Hall of Famer Kid Norfolk, along with besting notable Heavyweight contenders like Billy Miske…In arguably his greatest win, in any weight class, Greb became the only man to defeat the great Gene Tunney in a battle for billing as the American Light Heavyweight champ in 1922…Tunney would later avenge the loss officially, twice over, in a five fight series…Had Greb been entirely focused at Light Heavyweight, he might have rated higher and any arguments that he should have anyways are welcome…Greb was an inaugural member of the Hall of Fame in 1990.

Middleweights: http://jeetwin360.com/?m=show&id=24472

1) Harry Greb (1913-26)
Record: 105-8-3, 48 KO, 183 No Decisions
World Champion 1923-26, 6 Defenses
Middleweight Champions/Titlists Faced – 7: (Eddie McGoorty, George Chip, Al McCoy, Frank Mantell, Mike O’Dowd, Johnny Wilson, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers)

Previously, and shortly, reviewed as one of the top Light Heavyweights of all time, the “Pittsburgh Windmill” was even better at Middleweight. A non-stop punching machine with speed and a mighty chin, Greb found no harm in bending and breaking rules on the way to building his legend. The volume of his fights is such that he can be hard to summarize in a small space, but the attempt is made. A professional at 19, Greb would suffer the only real knockout loss of his career within his first six months as a pro (a later stoppage came on a broken arm). Fighting in the heart of the no decision era, most of his contests weren’t allowed an official verdict but accounts describe him as the winner more often than not through early years that included affairs with an aging Jack Blackburn, upstart versions of Hall of Famers Billy Miske and Tommy Gibbons, and former Middleweight champion George Chip. Of the men who appeared to defeat him, Gibbons was joined by Hall of Fame brother Mike and Chip. All of them were eventually solved, as were former champion Al McCoy, the great Jeff Smith, and Light Heavyweight exemplars Battling Levinsky, Jack Dillon, and Mike McTigue. Each of these challenges was faced within five years of turning pro, many of them multiple times, and almost always with the news win going to Greb. Eddie McGoorty lost an official verdict in 1918; the great Kid Norfolk lost an unofficial one in their first of two contests in 1921; and Tommy Gibbons joined Gene Tunney (in the first of five fights) in the official loss column in 1922. It would be for Tunney, the future Heavyweight champion, his sole official defeat. After defeating Tommy Loughran for the American Light Heavyweight title in January 1923, and losing it to Tunney three fights and one month later, Greb would finally get a shot at the Middleweight crown in August at the New York Polo Grounds. He bested Johnny Wilson on points to begin an entertaining reign. Spending more time at Light Heavyweight than Middle in between, Greb would fight eight times before a January 1924 rematch for the title at the Garden, again outpointing Wilson. In April of the year, he’d drop a nasty, foul filled encounter to Norfolk on a disqualification, the only time he’d look the loser either officially or unofficially in a seventeen fight campaign on the year. He’d go into the ring 25 times in 1925, looking the loser only once versus Tunney in a year that featured fights all over the scale versus Loughran, Wilson (again for the title), Maxie Rosenbloom and, in perhaps his most famous encounter not involving Tunney, in successful defense of the title in July against Mickey Walker. The following year would see the end come in many forms, first in two debated but official losses for the title to Tiger Flowers and then on the operating table. Attempting surgery on his nose and eyes, Greb died from a heart attack brought on from anesthetic complications two months after his last fight, aged only 32. It would be revealed that, while dominating the game for years, he spent as much as a third of his career blind in one eye due to a thumb foul.

Why He’s Here: There are few fighters who can contest Robinson’s claim as the greatest who ever lived. Harry Greb is one of them and this was as much his domain as Welterweight was Robinson’s. While no known tape exists of Greb fighting, and the few training films look awkward, plenty of tape exists of men who made up his opposition. Any man who could get the better of Loughran, Tunney, Walker, Rosenbloom, and the Gibbons brothers with one good eye had to be one hell of a fighter. Anyone who seemed to like beating and facing that level of opposition dozens upon dozens of times is the kind of crazy anyone can admire. So too was his disregard of the color line. While many white fighters and champions avoided the best black fighters of the day, Greb was not among them, happy to engage in series’ of fights with Norfolk and Flowers among others. His approximately 300 fights might be hard to summarize, but Greb, an inaugural inductee to the IBHOF in 1990, is certainly not hard to characterize.

Harry Greb was a great fighter.

And Harry Greb was the greatest Middleweight of them all.

[KILLA RIGHT]

Srr
hagler
monzon
greb
rjj