My rankings

[Humean]

You went on some cry baby rant about how you were going to leave because of the posters in this section, why are you still here? Why did you flip flop?

I thought it was a pretty good rant but anyway I like talking about boxing so that explains why I have stayed. Why do you want me to leave so badly?

Steele fought tougher completion. For a start he beat 8 men who had won or would go onto win a middleweight title which I believe is twice as many champs as Thil beat.

When I say I am ranking largely on resume I simply mean I am comparing who I think has the better record and not who actually think is the better fighter.

There is no formula or science behind rating someone resume, but how can there be when comparing over eras. I have Charley Burley
and Bernard Hopkins in by top 10 for completely opposite reasons. Burley is there for holding many wins over quality opponents, despite never being the champ. B Hop is in there for being a dominant champ despite not having many quality wins. It's gloriously inconsistent.

It is just meant to be a bit of fun you know!

I know it is supposed to be fun but don't you want consistency? Burley might have beaten some good fighters but he also lost as many fights to good fighters as he won so it seems pretty strange to rate him so highly.

Steele fought 8 men who were or would become a middleweight champion, he beat 7 of them and lost to one of them. One of them can hardly count for a great deal as Apostoli had only 6 fights when Steele defeated him and besides Steele lost his return fight with Apostoli 3 years later. However Steele did also beat future light heavyweight champion Gus Lesnevich.

On the surface Thil may not have as good a record as Steele, you are right that he did not beat as many middleweight world champions as Steele, only three in Gorilla Jones, Louis Brouillard and Vince Dundee. However he did beat a light heavyweight champion in Gustave Roth and two European middleweight champions in Ignacio Ara and Leone Jacovacci and a European light heavyweight champion in de Alfara. The European titles in that era should not be looked down upon as inferior to the 'world' titles of the NYSAC and NBA for they were to a large extent 'world' titles in the same way as the winners of the baseball 'world series' are world champions. Focussing on 'world' champions is a form of bias in regards to this era. If you look at both Steele and Thil's records in regards to the quality of their respective opponents in their era then it it very close between them. Certainly close enough to be dubious that Steele ranks 13 and Thil not at all. Funnily enough the American historians who makes their lists prefer the American middleweight to the Frenchmen that largely defended his title in Paris. Cerdan by contrast gets respect because he came to America and defeated Holman Williams and Georgie Abrams before destroying Tony Zale to become world champion. Retrospective respect for Thil has not be so forthcoming but contemporary respect was there as the ring magazine had him as their middleweight champion from 1932-1937.

[Welsh Jon]

I thought it was a pretty good rant but anyway I like talking about boxing so that explains why I have stayed. Why do you want me to leave so badly?



I know it is supposed to be fun but don't you want consistency? Burley might have beaten some good fighters but he also lost as many fights to good fighters as he won so it seems pretty strange to rate him so highly.

Steele fought 8 men who were or would become a middleweight champion, he beat 7 of them and lost to one of them. One of them can hardly count for a great deal as Apostoli had only 6 fights when Steele defeated him and besides Steele lost his return fight with Apostoli 3 years later. However Steele did also beat future light heavyweight champion Gus Lesnevich.

On the surface Thil may not have as good a record as Steele, you are right that he did not beat as many middleweight world champions as Steele, only three in Gorilla Jones, Louis Brouillard and Vince Dundee. However he did beat a light heavyweight champion in Gustave Roth and two European middleweight champions in Ignacio Ara and Leone Jacovacci and a European light heavyweight champion in de Alfara. The European titles in that era should not be looked down upon as inferior to the 'world' titles of the NYSAC and NBA for they were to a large extent 'world' titles in the same way as the winners of the baseball 'world series' are world champions. Focussing on 'world' champions is a form of bias in regards to this era. If you look at both Steele and Thil's records in regards to the quality of their respective opponents in their era then it it very close between them. Certainly close enough to be dubious that Steele ranks 13 and Thil not at all. Funnily enough the American historians who makes their lists prefer the American middleweight to the Frenchmen that largely defended his title in Paris. Cerdan by contrast gets respect because he came to America and defeated Holman Williams and Georgie Abrams before destroying Tony Zale to become world champion. Retrospective respect for Thil has not be so forthcoming but contemporary respect was there as the ring magazine had him as their middleweight champion from 1932-1937.

You do not have me convinced that Burley doesn't belong in the top 10, but you make a good arguement for Thil and I will have to look at him in more depth.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

When are you going to do your light heavy top 20.. I enjoyed this thread and a lot of the posts..

One last thought... Toney should be somewhere, at least number 20, and if u rank more based on resume, I would put his wins vs nunn mccallum up against anyone's top wins.. Sure It does make him the mw goat, but he has to be top 20

[RubenSonny]

Where is your list humean?

[Welsh Jon]

Light heavyweight top 20:

1. Ezzard Charles, USVI
2. Archie Moore, USA
3. Gene Tunney, USA
4. Michael Spinks, USA
5. Maxie Rosenbloom, USA
6. Harry Greb, USA
7. Harold Johnson, USA
8. Billy Conn, USA
9. Tommy Loughran, USA
10.Bob Foster, USA
11.Roy Jones Junior, USA
12.Jimmy Bivins, USA
13.Matthew Saad Muhammad, USA
14.John Henry Lewis, USA
15.Tommy Gibbons, USA
16.Jack Delaney, Canada
17.Joey Maxim, USA
18.Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, USA
19.Victor Galindez, Argentina
20.Virgil Hill, USA

[Andyland]

Light Heavyweight rankings

Nice Job!!

My favorite light heavy fighters were Marvin Johnson and Saad Muhammad.

[Scott9945]

Nice Job!!

My favorite light heavy fighters were Marvin Johnson and Saad Muhammad.

Good choices and two of my favorites as well. Never saw either one in a bad fight and they were in plenty of great ones.

[Welsh Jon]

Nice Job!!

My favorite light heavy fighters were Marvin Johnson and Saad Muhammad.

Saad Muhammad is probably my favourite light heavy too.

[Andyland]

Lt. Heavy rankings

Welsh Jon....you may want to make a new thread with your Lt. Heavy
rankings...too many viewers may not be aware you have added
to the original middleweight rankings

[Welsh Jon]

Welsh Jon....you may want to make a new thread with your Lt. Heavy
rankings...too many viewers may not be aware you have added
to the original middleweight rankings

Ok good point thanks!