was dempsey a bum?

[SABBATH]

Willard was underrated and a decent tall boxer with a good jab and hard right hand, but his greatest gifts were stamina and a chin. Great champion? Hell no. Good fighter who was tough as tough as they come? Definitely, as Lennox Lewis would say.

In Willard's 1911 fight with Joe Cox, Willard in an effort to avoid the onslaught of Cox, reportedly grabbed the referee and hid behind him to avoid getting hit. Willard then quit altogether, leaving the ring and telling the referee that he was in no condition to fight.

The act of cowardice so disgusted his veteran manager Billy McCarney that he immediately severed his contract with Willard. "I quit the big dog on the spot" McCarney would later recall.

Kid, would you concede the same graciousness you reserve for old time fighters like Willard, if a modern fighter did the same thing as Willard did against Cox? What are your views of Tyson-McNeeley for example?

[Kid Achilles]

I had typed out a long response to this post but boxingscene's server screwed up and it was never sent, or even saved in the quick reply window.

To summarize, Willard's quitting to Cox does not really take away much from my opinion of his heart as the fight happened extremely early in his career. In fact, I believe he'd only been a pro for one (perhaps a little longer than a year) year with no amateur background. I mean take Tyson in his first year of boxing (an amateur) and stick him in with a pretty solid pro prospect, and see how he does.

Yeah he quit, but Ingemar Johansson quit against Ed Sanders in the amateur ranks and Ingo was no coward. I think when you match an inexperienced fighter in over his head, you can't expect much. The professional attitude is something that is gained with experience and maturity (as a fighter, not just a human); you aren't born with it. Quitting against a guy with the potential Joe Cox had was no strike against Willard, whatever his manager had to say.

I just don't see the comparison to Tyson-McBride (I'm assuming you meant that and not McNeely, there was no quitting in that fight) where Tyson even as shot as he was had much more talent, experience, and ability than the absolutely lousy McBride who wasn't even hurting Tyson much.

To me the difference is Willard quit but went on to become known for his durability and gameness, while Tyson was always suspected to be a frontrunner by Atlas and guys around him, and the truth came out later in his career. Looking at Tyson's career in hindsight I see a trend towards folding when the going got tough whereas with Willard I see an inexperienced fighter (30 years old but a baby in boxing years) who quit, got over it, and turned himself into a decent but very tough fighter.

[butterfly1964]

Foreman is a swarmer hunter, if you have a brain you would realize that dempsey would lose this fight. You and kid aches dont listen to logic at all.

Foreman's weakness= slick boxing, not guys that will get inside his reach.

Tyson III, can't you read? I said that Kid Achilles never said that Dempsey could ko Foreman, I didn't say that I think Dempsey would ko Foreman. Read the post carefully before you respond, please.

[hemichromis]

I had typed out a long response to this post but boxingscene's server screwed up and it was never sent, or even saved in the quick reply window.

To summarize, Willard's quitting to Cox does not really take away much from my opinion of his heart as the fight happened extremely early in his career. In fact, I believe he'd only been a pro for one (perhaps a little longer than a year) year with no amateur background. I mean take Tyson in his first year of boxing (an amateur) and stick him in with a pretty solid pro prospect, and see how he does.

Yeah he quit, but Ingemar Johansson quit against Ed Sanders in the amateur ranks and Ingo was no coward. I think when you match an inexperienced fighter in over his head, you can't expect much. The professional attitude is something that is gained with experience and maturity (as a fighter, not just a human); you aren't born with it. Quitting against a guy with the potential Joe Cox had was no strike against Willard, whatever his manager had to say.

I just don't see the comparison to Tyson-McBride (I'm assuming you meant that and not McNeely, there was no quitting in that fight) where Tyson even as shot as he was had much more talent, experience, and ability than the absolutely lousy McBride who wasn't even hurting Tyson much.

To me the difference is Willard quit but went on to become known for his durability and gameness, while Tyson was always suspected to be a frontrunner by Atlas and guys around him, and the truth came out later in his career. Looking at Tyson's career in hindsight I see a trend towards folding when the going got tough whereas with Willard I see an inexperienced fighter (30 years old but a baby in boxing years) who quit, got over it, and turned himself into a decent but very tough fighter.

IMO willard coming out for round 2 after getting knocked down 7 times and floored for over 10 seconds at the end of round one is proof that he had alot of heart

[hemichromis]

Tyson III, can't you read? I said that Kid Achilles never said that Dempsey could ko Foreman, I didn't say that I think Dempsey would ko Foreman. Read the post carefully before you respond, please.

Oh is the pimp an alt of mike tyson jr?
it all makes sense now!

[brownpimp88]

who's mike tyson jr or mike tyson 3, this crap is annoying. I'm not even that big of a tyson fan.

[Mike Tyson77]

Dempsey was a top ten heavyweight and that is undisputed. I consider him one of the P4P greatest fighters and punchers of all time as he regulary took on much heavier men and beat them convincingly. People who actually understand what the term P4P means would agree with me.

In terms of ability, he had everything but an exceptional defense. His power, handspeed, footspeed, reflexes, chin, and endurance were all very good. His one flaw was he was often thinking of the attack and not about what the opponent was going to do with him. He did not have an extremely defensive mind, but he was no means slow or easy to hit. He just got caught coming in while on the attack. Luckily for him, he also had an amazing ability to recuperate from hard punches and knockdowns and then come back to land concussive blows of his own. He had as much heart as anyone who ever laced them up. I consider him superior to Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier in talent. He was the best of the great heavyweight swarmers.

As far as accomplishes go, he did not successfully defend his title against great competition compared to other great champions, but aside from Harry Wills, he took on everyone who was available. It should be noted that he completely cleaned up his division prior to winning the title.

All in all I rank Dempsey as the 5th or 6th greatest heavyweight, and that is due to a lackluster (in terms of quality of opposition; not the entertainment value of those fights!) championship reign. On ability alone he is a top three or four heavyweight.

I love Dempsey and Marciano, but Marciano I think is better. Marciano would rather die than lose. And you gotta take points from Dempsey for drawing the color line. Dempsey wouldnt even fight a 41 year old Jack Johnson.

[BuddyChacon]

I love Dempsey and Marciano, but Marciano I think is better. Marciano would rather die than lose. And you gotta take points from Dempsey for drawing the color line. Dempsey wouldnt even fight a 41 year old Jack Johnson.

Johnson also drew the color line himself during his reign as champ. I have read every Jack Johnson Writing I can and he couldn't stand when Louis became champ(He bashes Louis openly in many writings). He wanted to be the only black champ and that is why he avoided other Blacks during his reign.Dempsey management didn't want the fight blacks. He feared no man, and neither did Jack Johnson. But the trouble Jack Johnson caused would never be allowed to happen again and Dempseys management knew another black champ would be a public disaster. Johnson was not a worthy opponent for Dempsey at this point and Harry Wills would have been the appropriate challenger for Jack.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Johnson also drew the color line himself during his reign as champ. I have read every Jack Johnson Writing I can and he couldn't stand when Louis became champ(He bashes Louis openly in many writings). He wanted to be the only black champ and that is why he avoided other Blacks during his reign.Dempsey management didn't want the fight blacks. He feared no man, and neither did Jack Johnson. But the trouble Jack Johnson caused would never be allowed to happen again and Dempseys management knew another black champ would be a public disaster. Johnson was not a worthy opponent for Dempsey at this point and Harry Wills would have been the appropriate challenger for Jack.

He should have seen what happened over the next 20 years later...
Charles
Walcott
Patterson
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Spinks
Norton
Holmes

and later
Tyson
Buster Douglas
Holyfeild

it goes on, I know at the time it was easy to think descrimination would go on forever but looking back it makes me laugh for him to think that he would be the only...

[hemichromis]

who's mike tyson jr or mike tyson 3, this crap is annoying. I'm not even that big of a tyson fan.

now thats a bit of a porky!