Here is an illustration for the preclassical style

[billeau2]

I came across this guy on Youtube when looking for an illustration of the Ali Liston Punch. Thing is... this guy illustrates some of what I have been trying to point out about preclassical boxing.

The guy is right on the money...including about coming up and into targets, where he keeps his elbows, the limited pronation on his strikes and the use of the legs as the power source.

I wish we could sticky this thread as a reference point. I should get off my @55 and do a video myself. I have my students in NYC and when we move this summer I will start making vids again... But this guy has it right!

[NChristo]

The stance he is demonstrating is one that was mainly used just for poses though, it's rare if at all that you'll see an old boxer fight like that, even on grainy footage with barely much vision you can see they fight nothing like how they're portrayed to fight in old media.

[HOUDINI563]

The video is full of speculation.

[j.razor]

Fight like that today & your getting beat the *** up....LMMFAO!

[billeau2]

The stance he is demonstrating is one that was mainly used just for poses though, it's rare if at all that you'll see an old boxer fight like that, even on grainy footage with barely much vision you can see they fight nothing like how they're portrayed to fight in old media.

The main difference is that when he did the stance he was on his front leg, when they fought they were either moving back to front, or on the back leg.

So yes, because they were posing they would square up on the front. But the concepts he talks about including the angles of the hits and why is very valid.

[billeau2]

The video is full of speculation.

So nobody should extrapolate from concepts that are no longer used? You would have pre classical fighting "dead" moribund? Thats a really ****** thing to say frankly. Yes he is extrapolating whats wrong with that? Hes using points that are well grounded. One of the first things one learns punching without gloves is how dangerous it is to the hands. That is an example.

Also hes absolutely correct that the anatomical way we hit (watch an angry chimp hit something hard to see this) raising our hand and swinging it down as hard as we can...that is what our body is designed to do... is also how our body is protected. Nature works both ways! So my arm going down encounters a large hard forehead, then it slides past the plexus, and down past the groin. On the other hand, coming up, the way a trained fighter works, and with the older punches? your hitting up...your punch will catch the groin, the plexus the chin, the throat, the nose, etc. See how that works?

if you look at the stepping movement and the small punching piston movement on these blows, they were untelegraphed and designed to hit into the "soft spots" as the man says. That was not an accident. Ditto for what is said about the legs, the fencers learned this because if you want to run a man through with a blade you better have some force behind the thrust and it has to be more than just the arm shooting back. Hence the older guys did have strong legs for a reason.

[billeau2]

Fight like that today & your getting beat the *** up....LMMFAO!

yeah well...I was a bouncer for many many years and saw plenty of fights...and let me tell you from experience that you have not lived until youve watched what happens to people who don't know how to modify a punch. I once watched 2 big boys go to the hospital...against one twerp. First guy swings and hits a parking meter, broken hand....second guy trying to just get in there and get the twerp fires a shot, trips over first guy punch hits the ground, two broken hands, two big guys down and out.

The way people fought back then was a much more martial approach, as he said, they fought in all ranges and had grappling and even some throws. Boxers do well in many situations but they also can really screw up badly.

[Marchegiano]

I think hema or some such similar ye olden european sports organization does a bit of boxing.


I also think it's very sad the bare knuckle era's techniques are largely lost because no one in the history of the sport ever had more open rules. MMA has more restrictions than Dixie's rough and tumble. I don't want to see a man lose his genitals in a fight, but I am interested in what techniques would come under such lack of rules and how these men quite literally dethroned England's prestigious line of boxing champions.

It would very much be like MMA fighters taking over boxing to the point where MMA is seen as a beginner's sport and boxing is where skilled athletes end up. Except of course R&T is more complete than MMA could ever try to be.

When asking "How does a champion boxer deal with takedowns or throws?" you should only need to look to the history when boxers did just that regularly. It's a shame all you'll get is bits and pieces. Once I am done with the champions' narrative I'll put work toward the flow of technique through time.

[billeau2]

I think hema or some such similar ye olden european sports organization does a bit of boxing.


I also think it's very sad the bare knuckle era's techniques are largely lost because no one in the history of the sport ever had more open rules. MMA has more restrictions than Dixie's rough and tumble. I don't want to see a man lose his genitals in a fight, but I am interested in what techniques would come under such lack of rules and how these men quite literally dethroned England's prestigious line of boxing champions.

It would very much be like MMA fighters taking over boxing to the point where MMA is seen as a beginner's sport and boxing is where skilled athletes end up. Except of course R&T is more complete than MMA could ever try to be.

When asking "How does a champion boxer deal with takedowns or throws?" you should only need to look to the history when boxers did just that regularly. It's a shame all you'll get is bits and pieces. Once I am done with the champions' narrative I'll put work toward the flow of technique through time.

That would be a treat!

Suprisingly? the bare knuckle does have its devotees, they are in a lot of strange places though. For example, the scene is a ring circa 1970, the fighters? a professional boxer and a bare knuckle champ.... (I don't remember the details) the professional trounces the bare knuckle man, but there is an interesting aside... The bare knuckle fighter, bald, with pouch, etc, is able to get up each time the boxer puts him down...Seemingly with ease, the man can take a shot.

Some time later the year is 2015 and a wing Chun Expert goes to Europe to face the bare knuckle champ...Wing Chun guy is finally defeated, again... He can put the Gypsy man down, but never out.

Shifting gears we have the Gypsy King fighting a man with power to spare for heavyweight Glory he connects! Yet Tyson Fury, unlike many professonals today, does not panic... uses the count and miraculously rises. My question is, did Tyson Fury learn that skill? He looked very much like he learned that skill even though he allegedly trained exclusively in the gym. So we might have a bare knuckle skill applied here...

If one looks at classical postures in the Japanese fighting Arts, there are postures that look identical to the posture of a bare knuckles fighter. With the only difference being the placement of the back hand. the weight is the same, the idea is the same...It is a way to have time to react and create some distance between oneself and the opponent.

As far as punching, the art is practiced on the bag by some, with no wraps. the hands are taught to take the heavy bag. One also can condition the hand in other ways, with lead shot (old way not a good idea), beans, etc. The idea is to make the smaller striking areas, prominent. So hitting with a knuckle extended, even using the thumb as a striking weapon.

There are throws associated with these strikes as well. Using the thumb to drive the thumb into the cateroid while stepping into the person to throw, etc.

The technical use of these techniques does still exist. Its just that its in a lot of different strange places lol. In film, in subtle habits and ways (Tyson Fury), in martial arts practices, and by those who seek to recreate the art and use the techniques documented by historians of yore.

[HOUDINI563]

The question is why should anyone take this guys opinion as an accurate interpretation of how bare knuckle fighters actually fought? What qualifies him as an expert concerning bare knuckle boxing? Speculation has to be educated speculation in order to have any validity. The more educated the more valid.