When did the 9-belt era begin?

[Coverdale]

What?

You searched an entire paragraph that does say Lennox campaigned for a two belt system and then latched on to the handling of mandatories like as if that some how makes it possible to designate a super champion as different from a non-super without having any two belt system.

That's confirmation bias is all that is.


Or, conversely, you can explain the mental gymnastics it takes to designate a champion who isn't the traditional champion and does not follow the systems and process in place for the traditional champion nor does it replace the traditional champion BUT is not a new type of champion or an additional title added to existing titles specifically placed on top the entire hierarchy.




Bit like all the folks who tell me there is no minimal in weight divisions simply because no body goes out of their way to tell jamooks the max of one end is the min of the other. Despite the catchweights, and every modern champion since formalized weight divisions hitting minimals. I had to search for very specific sources saying very specific verbiage.

At some point you have to give up on your ability to interpret and look around. The evidence of the verbiage's point is all around you, been put into action, and still you need specific terms from specific sources to change what is at the end of the day your own misunderstanding of the semantics built on an idea you wanted to believe before you even asked for a source.






Lennox started his campaign in 2002 and it was for the creation of a title above the world title specifically so the world title could be used as a legal belt for legal obligations. That is a two belt system. Nothing you have read changes that. Nothing you've ever seen put into action challenges that. The box-off you're talking about happened, happens as often as the WBA can pull it off. Eventually Pulev, or whoever has Reg, is going to fight Usyk or the super holder, and unify the WBA super belt. Box-off.

It is not the body he campaigned to for six years before they hashed out the deets who then misunderstood those deets. I promise you this, the WBA did not accredit Lennox Lewis for the creation of WBA Super because he thought it would be ill received or because they thought it was a good idea. The entire reason fans know this came from Lennox is because the WBA was following Lennox's orders and trusting Lennox's perspective as a man who was stripped by a judge and were themselves unsure of fan reaction to creating a title they claim is above world champion. Or, a two tear belt system.

But you tell yourself, based on the verbiage of a press release someone else found for you, it's the WBA who misunderstood Lennox's intention.





Not confirmation bias? Not absurd fan protectionism for over glorified fighters? C'mon dude, I seen your posts, you're not dumb. In fact you are clever enough I'm not entirely sure you don't have something to say that would have worked if you asked and concluded to any other member here.



Nah son, there's absolutely no way the WBA misunderstood a project they let Lennox Lewis lead. There's just heaps against that. That said, if the goal is to rationalize Lennox Lewis being the genius who came up with the two belt system you should look to what the bodies are always strongest in, outreach and globalization. This super and two belt system nonsense has more to do with the WBO than any ever speaks to. And the WBO has more to do with the rise of the east than anyone speaks to. There's plenty in that. If you want to grandize Lennox, that's cool, I don't actually hate him it's just been a run of folks claiming he did do something he didn't do and forgiving or acting like he isn't responsible for the things he definitely did do.

I'll give you this for free; USSR breaks up abouts 92 right? Flood of east? Nah doe, more like a trickle. mid 2000s, new body getting total recognition for the first time since the 80s, a new belt gets created after a euro fighter campaigns to an NA body about US law marking the beginning of the two tier belt system, flood of eastern fighters and champions in our ranks. They're all more connected than I have ever seen presented to fans and make Lennox look good.



This "Lennox Lewis did not design the two tier belt system" nonsense is doomed to fail. There was a time when he was proud of it. The most anyone could say is he didn't envision what the WBC would do with the idea or how the WBA would react to that. The existence and acceptance of two tier though, def him bro.

That's an unnecessarily verbose and, frankly, gaslighting response which leaves me reluctant to engage with you further. Did you imagine you and I have this massive audience for our unimportant exchange which you need to be perceived to "win"?

[Coverdale]

What?

You searched an entire paragraph that does say Lennox campaigned for a two belt system and then latched on to the handling of mandatories like as if that some how makes it possible to designate a super champion as different from a non-super without having any two belt system.

That's confirmation bias is all that is.


Or, conversely, you can explain the mental gymnastics it takes to designate a champion who isn't the traditional champion and does not follow the systems and process in place for the traditional champion nor does it replace the traditional champion BUT is not a new type of champion or an additional title added to existing titles specifically placed on top the entire hierarchy.




Bit like all the folks who tell me there is no minimal in weight divisions simply because no body goes out of their way to tell jamooks the max of one end is the min of the other. Despite the catchweights, and every modern champion since formalized weight divisions hitting minimals. I had to search for very specific sources saying very specific verbiage.

At some point you have to give up on your ability to interpret and look around. The evidence of the verbiage's point is all around you, been put into action, and still you need specific terms from specific sources to change what is at the end of the day your own misunderstanding of the semantics built on an idea you wanted to believe before you even asked for a source.






Lennox started his campaign in 2002 and it was for the creation of a title above the world title specifically so the world title could be used as a legal belt for legal obligations. That is a two belt system. Nothing you have read changes that. Nothing you've ever seen put into action challenges that. The box-off you're talking about happened, happens as often as the WBA can pull it off. Eventually Pulev, or whoever has Reg, is going to fight Usyk or the super holder, and unify the WBA super belt. Box-off.

It is not the body he campaigned to for six years before they hashed out the deets who then misunderstood those deets. I promise you this, the WBA did not accredit Lennox Lewis for the creation of WBA Super because he thought it would be ill received or because they thought it was a good idea. The entire reason fans know this came from Lennox is because the WBA was following Lennox's orders and trusting Lennox's perspective as a man who was stripped by a judge and were themselves unsure of fan reaction to creating a title they claim is above world champion. Or, a two tear belt system.

But you tell yourself, based on the verbiage of a press release someone else found for you, it's the WBA who misunderstood Lennox's intention.





Not confirmation bias? Not absurd fan protectionism for over glorified fighters? C'mon dude, I seen your posts, you're not dumb. In fact you are clever enough I'm not entirely sure you don't have something to say that would have worked if you asked and concluded to any other member here.



Nah son, there's absolutely no way the WBA misunderstood a project they let Lennox Lewis lead. There's just heaps against that. That said, if the goal is to rationalize Lennox Lewis being the genius who came up with the two belt system you should look to what the bodies are always strongest in, outreach and globalization. This super and two belt system nonsense has more to do with the WBO than any ever speaks to. And the WBO has more to do with the rise of the east than anyone speaks to. There's plenty in that. If you want to grandize Lennox, that's cool, I don't actually hate him it's just been a run of folks claiming he did do something he didn't do and forgiving or acting like he isn't responsible for the things he definitely did do.

I'll give you this for free; USSR breaks up abouts 92 right? Flood of east? Nah doe, more like a trickle. mid 2000s, new body getting total recognition for the first time since the 80s, a new belt gets created after a euro fighter campaigns to an NA body about US law marking the beginning of the two tier belt system, flood of eastern fighters and champions in our ranks. They're all more connected than I have ever seen presented to fans and make Lennox look good.



This "Lennox Lewis did not design the two tier belt system" nonsense is doomed to fail. There was a time when he was proud of it. The most anyone could say is he didn't envision what the WBC would do with the idea or how the WBA would react to that. The existence and acceptance of two tier though, def him bro.

I remember the page you linked to on the old WBA website and I actually wrote one of my first emails to them about it (and received no reply). I've never seen any direct quotes from LL about the two-tier belt policy which is why I've always been sceptical he suggested it. What was his motivation to lead a "project" that he stood to gain nothing personally from? The WBA didn't reinstate him as their champion did they?

Unless it's a typo, the part I highlighted refers to organisations (plural) which is why I always thought LL was requesting that the sanctioning bodies cooperate to generate a single mandatory. He was quoted as saying "After you win all these belts, you cannot fight all these mandatory guys.”

This post isn't intended to defend LL any more than my post about the WBA not stripping him was. I just want to get a deeper understanding of what happened during that critical period. I would love to read the letter LL wrote the WBA, do you know if that's a matter of public record? I suppose it's possible we could ask LL about it directly.

[billeau2]

I've never said anything lineal titles in women's boxing. i have have no interest in women's boxing.

And I didn't say anything about boxing not being for the fans, I said the fans have no power to create titles and award them to fighters. That is a ridiculous, idiotic idea. The only power fans have is the power to decide whether to pay to watch a particular fight or not. That's as far as it goes.

Yes you did you know when? ABOUT THE TIME I SAID THERE DOES NOT NEED TO BE ANY GOVERNING BODIES IN BOXING AND THE LINEAL SHOULD REPLACE ALL REGULATING BODIES!!! Sucks when people put words in your mouth doesn't it? It was forgivable the first few times but after I clarified on multiple occasions my position you continued to ascribe a position which I never claimed.

So YES you Kafkod did not say anything of the sort and neither did I. lets be fair to each other shall we?

[billeau2]

If fans won't pay, there is no fight.

Other sports would go ahead regardless. The fixture list would prevail.

Boxing is unique. It's just prizefighting and the belts are just a loose attempt to appear organised. The fans have all the power in boxing.

Kafkod must hate himself! If he is a boxing fan

[tyler87432f]

I remember the page you linked to on the old WBA website and I actually wrote one of my first emails to them about it (and received no reply). I've never seen any direct quotes from LL about the two-tier belt policy which is why I've always been sceptical he suggested it. What was his motivation to lead a "project" that he stood to gain nothing personally from? The WBA didn't reinstate him as their champion did they?

Unless it's a typo, the part I highlighted refers to organisations (plural) which is why I always thought LL was requesting that the sanctioning bodies cooperate to generate a single mandatory. He was quoted as saying "After you win all these belts, you cannot fight all these mandatory guys.”

This post isn't intended to defend LL any more than my post about the WBA not stripping him was. I just want to get a deeper understanding of what happened during that critical period. I would love to read the letter LL wrote the WBA, do you know if that's a matter of public record of ? I suppose it's possible we could ask LL about it directly.

Yes it help for me

[kafkod]

Yes you did you know when? ABOUT THE TIME I SAID THERE DOES NOT NEED TO BE ANY GOVERNING BODIES IN BOXING AND THE LINEAL SHOULD REPLACE ALL REGULATING BODIES!!! Sucks when people put words in your mouth doesn't it? It was forgivable the first few times but after I clarified on multiple occasions my position you continued to ascribe a position which I never claimed.

So YES you Kafkod did not say anything of the sort and neither did I. lets be fair to each other shall we?

Wtf are you on about now? What words have I put into your mouth?

Have you not been telling me, over and over again, that the official world title belts are a joke and that fans should ignore them and exercise fan power by recognising "the lineal" instead of the WBA, WBC, WBO and IBF?

[kafkod]

IBO: They simply lack support. Official recognition is a circlejerk between member who were already recognized. Fans could potentially force an unofficial major body similar to fans' unofficial major ratings in TBRB and Ring, but IBO doesn't have that support either. Rich people have tried in the past and while their failure may be true what is also true is it would be possible with enough promotion, PPV deals and such. Finally, governments, the IBO does not enjoy enough government support to force their position as a major.


On Lennox and the WBA:




WBA SUPER CHAMPIONSHIPS

DEFINITION

The SUPER WORLD CHAMPION CATEGORY OR UNDISPUTED WORLD CHAMPION was created for those World Champions who hold the title of two or more organizations recognized by the WBA, like the World Boxing Council (WBC), the International Boxing Federation (IBF) and the World Boxing Organization (WBO).

The creation of the category of SUPER WORLD CHAMPIONS or UNDISPUTED WORLD CHAMPIONS was born from a suggestion sent to us by Lennox Lewis, World Boxing Association former Heavyweight Champion, which we have considered convenient in order to give the Unified Champions a more flexible time to defend their titles as well as the challengers the chance to fight for the title.

PROPOSED REGULATION

We are still working to set the regulation that shall rule the SUPER WORLD CHAMPIONS, and we have considered it convenient to establish the following:

1. 1. The SUPER CHAMPIONS will be obliged to make the mandatory defense of their titles in a period no longer than 18 months against the boxer recognized as the World Boxing Association Champion of the corresponding division.
   2. In the intermediate period between the mandatory defenses, the UNDISPUTED SUPER CHAMPION will be able to defend his title against any recognized opponent chosen from the official ratings list of the WBA or from the organizations it recognizes and with the approval of those organizations.
   3. The WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO will coordinate whenever necessary their respective ratings, to minimize any incompatibility in them for the Unified Titles, thus easing the optional fights of the UNIFIED SUPER CHAMPIONS.
   4. In those cases of controversies that make difficult the selection of the mandatory contender to fight with the SUPER CHAMPION, the organizations will be able to order mandatory fights (Box-off suggested by Lennox Lewis) to determine the mandatory contender previously agreed-. In those cases when they do not reach an agreement to make the mandatory fight as it is stated in point and previously stated in this provisional regulation, the Purse Bid Procedure will be ordered.

â

Regarding the bolded, the WBA changed their criterion for Super Champion status to avoid having to order Felix Sturm to defend his MW title against GGG, who had been Sturm's mandatory for around 2 years. Sturm wasn't a unified champion, so didn't qualify to be Super Champ under the original rules. But he was a cash cow in Germany at that time. So when GGG demanded that the WBA give him his mando shot, they changed their qualifying criterion and elevated Sturm to Super Champion based on number of defenses. GGG then fought Milton Nunez for a WBA world title that had been devalued to an under-belt by the creation of Sturm's super belt.

http://jeetwin360.com/articles...ow-super-champ

http://jeetwin360.com/articles...avoid-golovkin

There was some very shady shit going on there.

[kafkod]

If fans won't pay, there is no fight.

Other sports would go ahead regardless. The fixture list would prevail.

Boxing is unique. It's just prizefighting and the belts are just a loose attempt to appear organised. The fans have all the power in boxing.

I understand what you're saying, and there is no doubt that promoters - and the WBC - pander to fighters who have a lot of fans with "disposable incomes".

But world title belts, and world title fights, mean something to the fans, and no fighter is going to attract, and keep, a significant fan base if he doesn't at least try to win title belts. And if he becomes a title holder, his fans will want to see him defend his title. They don't take kindly to champions binning belts to avoid mandos.

[Toffee]

That isn't a thing anymore. Nobody recognized the Franchise title as legitimate so the WBC just quietly stopped handing them out.

They might have stopped handing them out but did they ever actually cancel the existing ones that had a "lifetime designation"?

[billeau2]

Wtf are you on about now? What words have I put into your mouth?

Have you not been telling me, over and over again, that the official world title belts are a joke and that fans should ignore them and exercise fan power by recognising "the lineal" instead of the WBA, WBC, WBO and IBF?

Your reading comprehension sucks... I have never set up a conflict between what the regulatory system does and the Lineal. I have said two things: Please read carefuly...

1. One important base of power and a tradition maintaining the Lineal title, belongs to the fans and it is real and has power. The lineal is not a regulatory agency and having other State sanctioned titles is fine provided (see below)

2. There are not a plethora of such belts that become delusional in assigning the word "champion" to champions. The system for these titles needs work BUT

Let me be perfectly clear now: The Lineal is a separate base of power. It does not get "better" or "worse" compared to how good or bad these regulatory bodies are: It acts independently. marg got this when he at least understood that Nat copied the lineal for Ring... The Lineal precedes Ring magazine.

Our biggest argument would probably be: To me the undisputed title of champion belongs at least as much to the lineal, as any particular organization/belt. And that is fine, we can agree to disagree on that point. BUT I have constantly made the point that the Lineal is Independent and belongs to the fans and does not intersect with the alphabet soup belts.

My own feeling about the alphabet soup belts which you are responding to is how they are too many and not run properly but Kafkod this has NOTHING to do with the Lineal. The one (Lineal) does not replace the other!

Now do you see my point of view? If I did not make this clear I apologize but please understand what I am arguing for!