How Did Tyson Fury succeed where Muhammad Ali failed?

[billeau2]

This kind of boils down to how good Wilder actually proves to be. We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight for Smokin Joe. I do think Wilder has a couple of things workin for him... He is fighting in a division where there are no guys who will force him, and... he therefore takes his time, and plans his attacks from a distance where he will not get hit hard by a guy going backwards. I mean look at all the deadly counter punchers there are at Heavy weight! or don't, and you get the same amount... O. Wilder also has finally understood the simple truth of coming in light, light , light and light.

A lot of guys who have the knowledge to beat Wilder (stay away from the right hand) and even the skills, do not necessarily have the courage or skills to fight at the range where Wilder is weakest. Sanchez is a great example. Frank could beat Wilder, but what will he do if he gets tagged hard, and has adversity to deal with? I could see a situation similar to Bowe versus Gonzalez under these conditions. Wilder may not be as talented as Bowe was, and Sanchez is probably at least marginally better than Gonzalez, but Sanchez has a flippant kind of quality. he does not act like he is all in, and always paying attention. I wonder if he can avoid a determined, light footed, hard hitting Wilder.

[markusmod]

Ali wasn't 6'9 and 300+

[Ivich]

This kind of boils down to how good Wilder actually proves to be. We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight for Smokin Joe. I do think Wilder has a couple of things workin for him... He is fighting in a division where there are no guys who will force him, and... he therefore takes his time, and plans his attacks from a distance where he will not get hit hard by a guy going backwards. I mean look at all the deadly counter punchers there are at Heavy weight! or don't, and you get the same amount... O. Wilder also has finally understood the simple truth of coming in light, light , light and light.

A lot of guys who have the knowledge to beat Wilder (stay away from the right hand) and even the skills, do not necessarily have the courage or skills to fight at the range where Wilder is weakest. Sanchez is a great example. Frank could beat Wilder, but what will he do if he gets tagged hard, and has adversity to deal with? I could see a situation similar to Bowe versus Gonzalez under these conditions. Wilder may not be as talented as Bowe was, and Sanchez is probably at least marginally better than Gonzalez, but Sanchez has a flippant kind of quality. he does not act like he is all in, and always paying attention. I wonder if he can avoid a determined, light footed, hard hitting Wilder.

Wilder is 37 with 46 fights under his belt how much improvement are you expecting to see?
Do you for example, see a marked improvement on the guy that ko'd Duhaupas to the guy who lost to Fury?
Good post by the way!

[QueensburyRules]

- - The background is Ali stood up for his and other young men's rights against the full force of the US Federal Government, took a huge financial hit, but ultimately won that fight that in turn won him the hearts and mind of majority America who previously looked askance at his career.

Conflating Flubber who spit his dummy as he melted like a spilt snowcone on a summer sidewalk would be farcical if it weren't Flubber at his most asinine.

- - Flubber!!!

[billeau2]

Wilder is 37 with 46 fights under his belt how much improvement are you expecting to see?
Do you for example, see a marked improvement on the guy that ko'd Duhaupas to the guy who lost to Fury?
Good post by the way!

I look at a lot of things, the state of the division, the way age works in the heavyweight division (you have a few more years), what the fighter has done, how they sort of came into their own... IF they ever did, or... conversely why they did not do so (Michael Grant a good example of this.) Where as Fury started out getting clubbed by Cabbies and his best uppercut had been the one he hit himself with... He had the underlying skills that developed... Grant, on the other hand started with a Wilder like skill, but very quickly was stopped in his tracks and could never really recover from lewis' beating, despite having some obvious talents.

What I see is some improvement since Wilder's pre Fury wins... He does know how to use a jab to set things up, and he seems more deliberate with his positioning. I see that Wilder very intelligently, Did Not, fall into the Charles Atlas=heavyweight champion illusion... and that is a big one. At 37 Wilder has taken a lot from Fury, but overall, not much from anyone else... If he stays light and keeps his feet relatively fast, He certainly is a live dog against Joshua.

As long as there are no guys who will push Wilder to make mistakes, he will continue to sharp shoot better, so to speak, and pick his spots better and better. I do think a counter puncher with good movement like Sanchez could easily beat Wilder... But as the Vampire told Roddy McDowell in one of my favorite vampire movies (Fright Night 2 the original)..."Your going to have to get closer to use that thing (Crucifix)." lol...

[billeau2]

Ali wasn't 6'9 and 300+

You kidding? Some people thought Ali's head was that size alone!!

[Willow The Wisp]

I look at a lot of things, the state of the division, the way age works in the heavyweight division (you have a few more years), what the fighter has done, how they sort of came into their own... IF they ever did, or... conversely why they did not do so (Michael Grant a good example of this.) Where as Fury started out getting clubbed by Cabbies and his best uppercut had been the one he hit himself with... He had the underlying skills that developed... Grant, on the other hand started with a Wilder like skill, but very quickly was stopped in his tracks and could never really recover from lewis' beating, despite having some obvious talents.

What I see is some improvement since Wilder's pre Fury wins... He does know how to use a jab to set things up, and he seems more deliberate with his positioning. I see that Wilder very intelligently, Did Not, fall into the Charles Atlas=heavyweight champion illusion... and that is a big one. At 37 Wilder has taken a lot from Fury, but overall, not much from anyone else... If he stays light and keeps his feet relatively fast, He certainly is a live dog against Joshua.

As long as there are no guys who will push Wilder to make mistakes, he will continue to sharp shoot better, so to speak, and pick his spots better and better. I do think a counter puncher with good movement like Sanchez could easily beat Wilder... But as the Vampire told Roddy McDowell in one of my favorite vampire movies (Fright Night 2 the original)..."Your going to have to get closer to use that thing (Crucifix)." lol...

We're mostly in agreement on that for sure. Wilder didn't come to boxing until he was 20. Ortiz, who was in the game much longer pressed him good, but like he did with everything else put on his plate Wilder bombed him out. The 3 Fury fights offered up some punishment for both champions as they fought to a near stand still in two of them. (Some, though not me, beleive that Wilder scored two knockouts in those two fights).
I think Wilder has 3 years left to be better than he's ever been, and I can't think of any heavyweight on the horizon good enough, big enough, strong chinned enough and fast enough to be the one who forces him to make mistakes whilst avoiding the BOMB. Fury comes to mind, but even him beating Wilder is obviously never a lock.
I would LOVE to see Wilder vs. Joshua more than any fight that could be made in 2023-24!!! For Wilder it Seals his place as the 2nd best of his generation and by only a close shave beyond a doubt.
Just hoping Joshua doesn't get beat again to spoil it.
For now, looking forward to the knockout king planting Joshua conqueror Andy Ruiz Jr like a turnip.

[billeau2]

We're mostly in agreement on that for sure. Wilder didn't come to boxing until he was 20. Ortiz, who was in the game much longer pressed him good, but like he did with everything else put on his plate Wilder bombed him out. The 3 Fury fights offered up some punishment for both champions as they fought to a near stand still in two of them. (Some, though not me, beleive that Wilder scored two knockouts in those two fights).
I think Wilder has 3 years left to be better than he's ever been, and I can't think of any heavyweight on the horizon good enough, big enough, strong chinned enough and fast enough to be the one who forces him to make mistakes whilst avoiding the BOMB. Fury comes to mind, but even him beating Wilder is obviously never a lock.
I would LOVE to see Wilder vs. Joshua more than any fight that could be made in 2023-24!!! For Wilder it Seals his place as the 2nd best of his generation and by only a close shave beyond a doubt.
Just hoping Joshua doesn't get beat again to spoil it.
For now, looking forward to the knockout king planting Joshua conqueror Andy Ruiz Jr like a turnip.

Ortiz fought beautifully. Thing is... finding a Cuban pressure fighter is about as rare as finding that recording of greb's fights taken by some grandma who was a fan... she just left them in her attic. Chisora, at an earlier age would have been a good test. Fury is good enough to know how and when to press...and he did to great effect.

Andy is another great example... He can press a bit but compare that to someone like Fulmore against Robinson, or marciano, Frazier... guys who just keep coming at you, break you down... Wilder can pick his spots with Andy.

[markusmod]

You kidding? Some people thought Ali's head was that size alone!!

Hahahahhahaha

[QueensburyRules]

We're mostly in agreement on that for sure. Wilder didn't come to boxing until he was 20. Ortiz, who was in the game much longer pressed him good, but like he did with everything else put on his plate Wilder bombed him out. The 3 Fury fights offered up some punishment for both champions as they fought to a near stand still in two of them. (Some, though not me, beleive that Wilder scored two knockouts in those two fights).
I think Wilder has 3 years left to be better than he's ever been, and I can't think of any heavyweight on the horizon good enough, big enough, strong chinned enough and fast enough to be the one who forces him to make mistakes whilst avoiding the BOMB. Fury comes to mind, but even him beating Wilder is obviously never a lock.
I would LOVE to see Wilder vs. Joshua more than any fight that could be made in 2023-24!!! For Wilder it Seals his place as the 2nd best of his generation and by only a close shave beyond a doubt.
Just hoping Joshua doesn't get beat again to spoil it.
For now, looking forward to the knockout king planting Joshua conqueror Andy Ruiz Jr like a turnip.

- - I'd love if AJ, knowing Deyonce and Flubber turned down record purses to fight AJ, told them both to go pound sand in Timbuktu where they belong.

AJ already accomplished more than most in the division, and easily the most ducked heavy champ ever, so all he has to do is take a few more showy fights, say Hrgvic, ect, and retire on a rare fortune that all the other heavies lacked because they was never The Man of the Populace in their moments.