I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.
Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.
Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:
1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.
2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.
3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.
4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.
The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:
1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.
2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.
3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.
4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.
5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.
6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.
7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.
8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.
9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.
10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?
11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.
12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.
13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.
14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!
15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.
16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.
17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.
There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.
Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.
Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:
1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.
2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.
3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.
4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.
The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:
1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.
2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.
3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.
4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.
5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.
6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.
7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.
8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.
9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.
10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?
11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.
12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.
13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.
14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!
15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.
16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.
17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.
There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.
TheBoxingInformator
anybodies competition can be broken down that way.
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