Deflating the Ali Legend

[siablo14]

he even made accusations of match fixing.

[GJC]

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

You have pretty much eliminated Ali as a fighter from having anything to do with his reputation. His resume as a HW is second to none imo and compares favourably to pretty much any p4p atg. Whilst he wasn't without a weakness he had one hell of a skill set. Put that with the fact of his longevity and the fact that we probably still never saw the best of him and you have a fighter with a richly deserved reputation. For me SRR was the greatest but I have yet to see a HW who I could confidently say would beat a prime Ali

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

Hardly a flaw, it would be a ****** fighter who didn't take the path of least resistance to a title shot. Also there are always fighters missing of a fighters resume due to time lines etc but it is a real reach to find too many on Ali's resume

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

Bit of an exagerated urban myth has gone on about this fight and the length of delay. The fact of it was the ropes cushioned Ali's fall and he got up from every hard punch he ever took so it is conjecture to say that Cooper's would have done for him.
Don't forget he finished Copper in the next round so wasn't showing too many ill effects.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

Ali won this comfortably, Jones gave a good account by Ali won. Jones was coming off a win against Folley, so you can't have it both ways was Folley a contender or not?

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

This is hindsight. Coming into the first Liston fight I and pretty much everyone else thought Ali/Clay would be KO'd within 4 rounds.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

I've never been comfortable with the KO but I don't think Liston took a dive for money. What went through his mind we can only speculate. That said I think that Ali had Liston's measure and maybe Liston realised that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

Wouldn't be the first fighter to take the odd easy match. If they paid more than a journeyman would then why not? He was after all the WORLD champion.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

Maybe to the man in the street, personally I don't think it effected his stature as a boxer to boxing fans one way or other, certainly not to me. If anything it robbed us of his peak, can you think who would have beaten him in that era? He might well have disposed of a rushed green Frazier easily and we would have been robbed of 2 great fights, who can say?

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

I had this for Frazier, I know there is a school of thought that Ali one but not to my eyes.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

It's called ringcraft, any great fighter does what he can get away with. Marciano, Armstrong, Duran etc etc

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

Foreman changes with the wind on this. In facing Ali he says the drugged drink was an excuse he pulled out of the air.

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

I gave the 3rd to Norton and have seen worse decisions than giving Norton the 2nd fight too. That said Ali wouldn't be the first champion or big name to be given the benefit of the doubt. Norton was Ali's bogeyman, doesn't make him a better fighter or diminish Ali imo.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

Ali was losing the fight but whilst Lyle wasn't knocked down he has in trouble. He took countless punches without replying for 30 seconds, maybe the referee did stop it a touch early but rather too early than too late.
To my eyes Lyle was done, yes he argued the stoppage as he passively follwed Ali to Ali's corner, dazed.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

Frazier was in decline as was Ali, great fight and the last hurrah of 2 atg's

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

This is one of those fights that Young wins more rounds by the year. I would have given the nod to Young but it was by no means a shut out.

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

Yes Ali faked Shavers out and had Shavers gone all or nothing who knows? That said no one ever KO'd Ali so it is speculation that Shavers would have. Had Shavers gone more hell for leather in the eraly rounds you could easily say his suspect stamina might have let him down in the later rounds.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

I wouldn't argue with either point, Ali was a shell and Spinks was extremely limited. I personally draw the line under Ali with the Shavers fight.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

Ali was finished, this fight does neither him or Holmes any credit.
I would grant you that by 1977 Holmes could have beaten Ali but I wouldn't neccessary say that Ali ducked Holmes. Its the old risk versus reward Ali would fight Godzilla if the money was right. If there is no more money in the pot he'd rather fight a Spinks or a Evangelista, thats the game.
Also lets not forget they were both top 10 ranked.

[DeepSleep]

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

Doesn't every high-profile prospect get catered to until they are in prime? you won't see many big name prospects put in the ring with a guy that management thinks is a tough match-up for them.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

If Chico didn't spit his mouth guard out against Castillo he would have got his bell rung, but I rarely hear people attempt to discredit his win.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

If you want to beat the champion you have "beat him". If you want to beat the champion you have to win decisively. for example Clottey and Cotto, Cotto was the champion so in the event of a tight match normally the Challenger gets snubbed.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

Perhaps but the 1 round he did fight in he was good enough to destroy Floyd Patterson. If Liston was in such bad shape I don't think he would have wrecked Patterson so effortlessly.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

Second fight to me is fishy so I'll give you that, but if Liston was as unstable as you make him out to be who is to say he simply lost his confidence and quit against Ali?

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

I think Ali has fought more Hall of Famers and won than almost every if not every Heavyweight champion of all time so complaining about his fights with bums is kind of silly.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

True

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

This was certainly not Ali at his best. It was post-prime Ali showing he could win in different ways. Not many fighters can come back after a 4 year lay-off and beat HOF heavyweights who were in their prime.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

There are alot of fighters who hold much more than Ali without warning. Wladmir Klitschko holds way more than Ali, should he be warned and or have points deducted?

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

Ali didn't give a rematch because he knew if they fought again Foreman would not fall for his trick of letting him punch himself out. Ali won this fight off pure wits and strategy and he knew that he couldn't beat Foreman again with Foreman knowing his strategy so he didn't give him a rematch in my opinion. S

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

Personally I think Norton won the third fight but nor the second. I think though the fight was close enough that again if the judges lean towards the champion it is not a surprise.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

Lyle wasn't fighting back. Lyle can complain all he wants but he was getting strafed by Ali and was wobbling all over the ring. If he didn't want the fight stopped he needs to punch.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

Ali was just as washed up as Frazier.

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

But he was faked out and lost. If Foreman didn't land that bomb on Moorer he would have lost and Moorer should have been champ, but Foreman did land the punch and Moorer lost his championship. Should of/Could of/Would doesn't have much value.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

You said it yourself Ali was washed up.

Tyson lost to Danny Williams.
Holmes lost to Brian Nielson.
Holyfield lost to Larry Donald.

Should we discredit those HW's for there losses to weak opposition too when they were way past prime?

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

At this stage in Ali's career claiming Ali ducked anyone is silly, he was a shell of a great champion. Holmes himself struggled against guys with good jabs ala Witherspoon and Norton. Ali has a good jab and far superior footwork and hand speed to those guys what makes you so sure Holmes could handle Ali's so much better.



I'm afraid though this discussion is going to turn into a name-calling middle school yelling match instead of a good discussion, but I'll put my two cents in before the name calling starts. I'd type more but the Purdue - Ohio State game is about to start and I want some good seats.

[BKM-]

I've seen a lot of threads like this over the years and they all just fail really badly.(Some of them are even meant as joke threads) Ali is ranked where he should be, which is consistlently as the #1 all time heavyweight and top 5 or 3 all time pound for pound. The thing where they all go wrong is, if you do this to Ali, where does it leave the rest? Then you can do the same to all the other greats.

[GJC]

Mike Tyson is my favorite boxer and the best heavyweight of all time, IMO, and I know a lot of what he said above is true for Tyson as well.

You could more easily chop up Tyson's record than Ali's.
There are 4 atg fighters on Tyson's record, a washed up Holmes, a light heavyweight Spinks and Holyfield and Lewis whom he lost to.
Granted he was past prime against both Holyfield and Lewis but if you knock those losses out then you have to knock out the Holmes and Spinks wins as they too were both post prime.
Ali has wins over Liston, Foreman and Frazier, Tyson doesn't even begin to compete with those. Tyson is a top ten atg HW but he doesn't get near Ali

[F l i c k e r]

Ali wasn't **** but a heavyweight with footwork.

I don't give a damn who he faught. In that day and age, no one knew how to fight a heavyweight who faught like a lightweight. Back then, heavyweights were expected to stand flatfooted and duke it out. Ali ran around the ring throwing jabs and maybe a right cross here and there.

Not to mention Frazier was fucking robbed in their last showdown. The ended the fight because of his mouth bleeding. What kind of **** is that? Frazier was still ready to go. Ali on the otherside of the ring was telling his coach that he wasn't going to fight PERIOD. Then passed out right after the bell rung. Gtfoh, if you don't think that was highway robbery, grand theft auto, and assault with a deadly weapon all in one crime.

Ali faught great guys but all of them were one dimensional. Now-a-days, that **** don't work. Vitali would beat his ass, Holyfield in the 90s would beat his ass, Tyson on a good day would beat his ass, Lennox would beat his ass, hell Donovan Ruddock would probably whoop his ass too.

jab-jab-jab-jab-right cross.... is fucking amateur. He never went to the body. His hands were always down at his sides.

Best of that era... I agree.

Best of all time.... HELL no.

[CarlosG815]

You could more easily chop up Tyson's record than Ali's.
There are 4 atg fighters on Tyson's record, a washed up Holmes, a light heavyweight Spinks and Holyfield and Lewis whom he lost to.
Granted he was past prime against both Holyfield and Lewis but if you knock those losses out then you have to knock out the Holmes and Spinks wins as they too were both post prime.
Ali has wins over Liston, Foreman and Frazier, Tyson doesn't even begin to compete with those. Tyson is a top ten atg HW but he doesn't get near Ali

I still think Tyson beats Ali.

It's all opinion.

[Princemanzpoper]

Not to mention Frazier was fucking robbed in their last showdown. The ended the fight because of his mouth bleeding. What kind of **** is that?

frazier robbed himself during that fight.He robbed himself of his own manhood by quitting on his stool rather than going out like a man and getting his brittle chin cracked by his feather fisted superior.


Nothing to do with a cut mouth I'm afraid.I wouldn't expect an mmgay fan to know any better,so your ignorance is forgiven.

[1SILVA]

You have pretty much eliminated Ali as a fighter from having anything to do with his reputation. His resume as a HW is second to none imo and compares favourably to pretty much any p4p atg. Whilst he wasn't without a weakness he had one hell of a skill set. Put that with the fact of his longevity and the fact that we probably still never saw the best of him and you have a fighter with a richly deserved reputation. For me SRR was the greatest but I have yet to see a HW who I could confidently say would beat a prime Ali



Hardly a flaw, it would be a ****** fighter who didn't take the path of least resistance to a title shot. Also there are always fighters missing of a fighters resume due to time lines etc but it is a real reach to find too many on Ali's resume


Bit of an exagerated urban myth has gone on about this fight and the length of delay. The fact of it was the ropes cushioned Ali's fall and he got up from every hard punch he ever took so it is conjecture to say that Cooper's would have done for him.
Don't forget he finished Copper in the next round so wasn't showing too many ill effects.

Ali won this comfortably, Jones gave a good account by Ali won. Jones was coming off a win against Folley, so you can't have it both ways was Folley a contender or not?


This is hindsight. Coming into the first Liston fight I and pretty much everyone else thought Ali/Clay would be KO'd within 4 rounds.

I've never been comfortable with the KO but I don't think Liston took a dive for money. What went through his mind we can only speculate. That said I think that Ali had Liston's measure and maybe Liston realised that.

Wouldn't be the first fighter to take the odd easy match. If they paid more than a journeyman would then why not? He was after all the WORLD champion.

Maybe to the man in the street, personally I don't think it effected his stature as a boxer to boxing fans one way or other, certainly not to me. If anything it robbed us of his peak, can you think who would have beaten him in that era? He might well have disposed of a rushed green Frazier easily and we would have been robbed of 2 great fights, who can say?

I had this for Frazier, I know there is a school of thought that Ali one but not to my eyes.

It's called ringcraft, any great fighter does what he can get away with. Marciano, Armstrong, Duran etc etc

Foreman changes with the wind on this. In facing Ali he says the drugged drink was an excuse he pulled out of the air.

I gave the 3rd to Norton and have seen worse decisions than giving Norton the 2nd fight too. That said Ali wouldn't be the first champion or big name to be given the benefit of the doubt. Norton was Ali's bogeyman, doesn't make him a better fighter or diminish Ali imo.


Ali was losing the fight but whilst Lyle wasn't knocked down he has in trouble. He took countless punches without replying for 30 seconds, maybe the referee did stop it a touch early but rather too early than too late.
To my eyes Lyle was done, yes he argued the stoppage as he passively follwed Ali to Ali's corner, dazed.

Frazier was in decline as was Ali, great fight and the last hurrah of 2 atg's

This is one of those fights that Young wins more rounds by the year. I would have given the nod to Young but it was by no means a shut out.

Yes Ali faked Shavers out and had Shavers gone all or nothing who knows? That said no one ever KO'd Ali so it is speculation that Shavers would have. Had Shavers gone more hell for leather in the eraly rounds you could easily say his suspect stamina might have let him down in the later rounds.

I wouldn't argue with either point, Ali was a shell and Spinks was extremely limited. I personally draw the line under Ali with the Shavers fight.

Ali was finished, this fight does neither him or Holmes any credit.
I would grant you that by 1977 Holmes could have beaten Ali but I wouldn't neccessary say that Ali ducked Holmes. Its the old risk versus reward Ali would fight Godzilla if the money was right. If there is no more money in the pot he'd rather fight a Spinks or a Evangelista, thats the game.
Also lets not forget they were both top 10 ranked.

You took the words out of my mouth. As always, GJC, you are a hell of a poster!!!!!!!!!

[T.Horton]

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

I thought that the palindrome, Mark Kram passed away a few years ago....