Is super-heavyweight domination a myth?

[Pugilist_Spec]

A lot of people are talking about the current heavyweight division which is allegedly dominated by super-heavyweights, behemots far bigger and superior to the fighters of old. Breaking down this myth, I've looked at Wladimir Klitschkos resume who fought everyone in the division for the most part, and the 10 toughest men he faced in the ring based either on resume or performance against him, you get:

Bryant Jennings – 6'3'' 226 lb
Alexander Povetkin – 6'2'' 225 lb
Kubrat Pulev – 6'4'' 247 lb
Samuel Peter first fight – 6'2'' 243 lb
Chris Byrd first fight – 6'1'' 213 lb
David Haye – 6'3'' 210 lb
Lamon Brewster – 6'2'' 226 lb
Corrie Sanders – 6'4'' 225 lb
Sultan Ibragimov – 6'2'' 219 lb
Ruslan Chagaev – 5'11'' 224 lb

As one can see, only 2 of these men weigh more than 230 pounds, while 2 are below 215 pounds. Most of them are in the 220-225 pound range.

Nobody is taller than 6'4'', and there are fighters as short as 5'11''. Most of them are 6'2'' and 6'3''.

The most problematic opponents were Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster (both 225 pounds) who beat him, Bryant Jennings (same as the other two) who was described by Tyson Fury as a throwback heavyweight of the 70s and gave Wlad more problems than anyone in years through movement and body punching, and of course the only "super-heavyweight", Sam Peter.

Looking at these facts, it's far-fetched to believe that giants are dominating the division when most guys are just a little bigger if not at all than fighters 30 years ago.

[Elroy1]

Let's look at the only 3 fighters you can really call "dominant" over the last 20 years..

LEnnox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

6'5-6'7" 245lbs

It's clear...

You have to go back to Mike Tyson of thye 80's, a very special case, to find a shorter dude in lieu of 220lbs.

[Pugilist_Spec]

Let's look at the only 3 fighters you can really call "dominant" over the last 20 years..

LEnnox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

6'5-6'7" 245lbs

It's clear...

You have to go back to Mike Tyson of thye 80's, a very special case, to find a shorter dude in lieu of 220lbs.

Holyfield was better than Lewis. Vitali lost to Byrd and fought a stream of no-hopers for the most part of his career. Ditto on Wladimir though even he was bombed by 2 guys relatively tiny in comparison to him.

Again, only 2 of Wladimir's best wins could be classified as super-heavyweights.

[Anthony342]

Holyfield was better than Lewis. Vitali lost to Byrd and fought a stream of no-hopers for the most part of his career. Ditto on Wladimir though even he was bombed by 2 guys relatively tiny in comparison to him.

Again, only 2 of Wladimir's best wins could be classified as super-heavyweights.

Don't bother man. Logic is lost on him.

[Weltschmerz]

The division has been dominated by a super heavy for the past decade. That is no myth either.

[Elroy1]

Holyfield was better than Lewis. Vitali lost to Byrd and fought a stream of no-hopers for the most part of his career. Ditto on Wladimir though even he was bombed by 2 guys relatively tiny in comparison to him.

Again, only 2 of Wladimir's best wins could be classified as super-heavyweights.

If you call a 6'4" 226lber and a 6'2" 226lber (who was in fact far more solid too) "tiny" opponents then you basically just proved your own point wrong, since the ONLY 2 guys to beat Wlad were bigger BY FAR than anything prior to 1980 that was not considered a circus geek!

And only ONE of these guys really beat Wlaidmir, the shorter of the 2 won by default of Wladimir being extremely ill obviously.

Vitali beat Byrd easily, quitting simply due to injury.

Lennox was in a class apart from Holyfield. Holyfield could not hold onto a title to save his life and fought basically the dregs that LEnnox dismissed as unworthy opponents... And LOST to them!

LEnnox and both Klitschko's and Mike Tyson are the only 4 boxers worth mentioning when talking about "dominance" in all boxing history.

Evander Holyfield, with a record of 26-10 and a multiple time champ (meaning he lost it several times) doesn't cut the mustard!

Chris Byrd? He was a great fighter but he did not have the fire power to dominate like the technical giants of the division.

[Pugilist_Spec]

If you call a 6'4" 226lber and a 6'2" 226lber (who was in fact far more solid too) "tiny" opponents then you basically just proved your own point wrong, since the ONLY 2 guys to beat Wlad were bigger BY FAR than anything prior to 1980 that was not considered a circus geek!

No, not really. A bit bigger, but they weren't bigger than fighters like Foreman and Norton, or Ali. And Sanders was out of shape at 225 pounds. His best fighting weight was 210 pounds.

And only ONE of these guys really beat Wlaidmir, the shorter of the 2 won by default of Wladimir being extremely ill obviously.

Extremely ill? On what basis? Wladimir gassed himself out after unsuccessfuly trying to get rid of Brewster quickly after he tasted his left hook.

Vitali beat Byrd easily, quitting simply due to injury.

Vitali:

- Barely outlanded Byrd 132-124
- Was losing when he decided to quit
- Never stopped using either hand
- Was in the ring a few months later
- Admitted in the post-fight interview that he thought he couldn't win enough points for a decision win
- Admitted that the injury had nothing to do with him quitting

Lennox was in a class apart from Holyfield. Holyfield could not hold onto a title to save his life and fought basically the dregs that LEnnox dismissed as unworthy opponents... And LOST to them!

LEnnox and both Klitschko's and Mike Tyson are the only 4 boxers worth mentioning when talking about "dominance" in all boxing history.

Evander Holyfield, with a record of 26-10 and a multiple time champ (meaning he lost it several times) doesn't cut the mustard!

Lennox never had a Bowe to wrestle his title away from him. He did however almost lose to Ray Mercer, a fighter whom Holyfield had beaten a little more decisively right before Lennox fought him. All of this is irrelevant however as even an aging Holyfield was able to go head to head with Lennox and arguably outboxed him in their second fight.

[Elroy1]

No, not really. A bit bigger, but they weren't bigger than fighters like Foreman and Norton, or Ali. And Sanders was out of shape at 225 pounds. His best fighting weight was 210 pounds.

George Foreman, the biggest of all "quality" fighters prior to 1980... 6'4" (still tall, same as Sanders), 220lbs, less than Sanders and today equal to Tomasz Adamek and David Haye in weight (except far less ripped)

Muhammad Ali- former cruiser, average weight 210lbs, when prime was the sam,e size as Cunningham except without any of the skills or conditioning or reflexes.

Ken Norton- 6'2"- similar to Brewster except much lighter, remember Brewster was a usual 230lber! And it is easy to see the difference in power and chin is enormous with Brewstyer being a savage puncher and tanker in the chin dept and Norton being a featherfist gl;ass jaw.

Extremely ill? On what basis? Wladimir gassed himself out after unsuccessfuly trying to get rid of Brewster quickly after he tasted his left hook.

It is totally proven that Wladimir suffered from hypoglycaemic shock and nearly died. There was even an investigation! Only the most ardent nut bags would dare to argue this!

Vitali:

- Barely outlanded Byrd 132-124
- Was losing when he decided to quit
- Never stopped using either hand
- Was in the ring a few months later
- Admitted in the post-fight interview that he thought he couldn't win enough points for a decision win
- Admitted that the injury had nothing to do with him quitting

- Won every single round nearly- the scores only levelling out BECAUSE of the injury. See the reaction of HBO at the end of the fight.. Quote LArry Merchant "Way WAY ahead" and "All he had to do was stand there and he would have won the fight".

-Was clearly winning, see above
- Was conditioned to use both hands obviously and tried to fight through pain
- Healed fast
- His comment regarding not winning enough rounds was met with ridicule by everybody because by all accounts he did not even have to throw another single punch to win the fight.

- And was was Vitali's "alternative" for quitting if not injury? Something tells me this is out of context.

- Byrd could never have beaten Vitali in a rematch.. Neither could have LEnnox. Only a hater would posit otherwise.

Lennox never had a Bowe to wrestle his title away from him. He did however almost lose to Ray Mercer, a fighter whom Holyfield had beaten a little more decisively right before Lennox fought him. All of this is irrelevant however as even an aging Holyfield was able to go head to head with Lennox and arguably outboxed him in their second fight.

Bowe ducked LEnnox to the end of time because he knew he'd be KOed.. Bowe, who got smashed by Golota whom LEnnox wasted in 1 round!.

So Lennox struggled a bit with MErcer, a common opponent. Yes LEnnox sometimes had a lacklustre performance, but he only 2ce didn't capitalise on them andthey were few and far between (henmce dominant).

Holyfield by contrast not only lost half as much as he won, but in nearly every single fight he struggled! Struggled against opponents that LEnnox would not even bother KOin, would KO easily and would never lose rounds to.

Only an Amercian would display such contempt for the British and Slavic dominant champs like this

[Pugilist_Spec]

George Foreman, the biggest of all "quality" fighters prior to 1980... 6'4" (still tall, same as Sanders), 220lbs, less than Sanders and today equal to Tomasz Adamek and David Haye in weight (except far less ripped)

Muhammad Ali- former cruiser, average weight 210lbs, when prime was the sam,e size as Cunningham except without any of the skills or conditioning or reflexes.

Ken Norton- 6'2"- similar to Brewster except much lighter, remember Brewster was a usual 230lber! And it is easy to see the difference in power and chin is enormous with Brewstyer being a savage puncher and tanker in the chin dept and Norton being a featherfist gl;ass jaw.

Foreman and Norton were lean and muscular at 220 pounds. Ali was lean and superbly conditioned at 215 pounds, pre-exile.

Sanders and Brewster are natural 210 pounders carrying 15 pounds of excess extra flab.

When a fighter is lean at a certain weight, while the other is rotund and chubby, the former is considered to be naturally bigger.

By your account, James Toney is as big as Wladimir Klitschko because they both weigh 240 pounds.

It is totally proven that Wladimir suffered from hypoglycaemic shock and nearly died. There was even an investigation! Only the most ardent nut bags would dare to argue this!

Totally proven? Where's the evidence then? Put up or shut up.

- Won every single round nearly- the scores only levelling out BECAUSE of the injury. See the reaction of HBO at the end of the fight.. Quote LArry Merchant "Way WAY ahead" and "All he had to do was stand there and he would have won the fight".

-Was clearly winning, see above
- Was conditioned to use both hands obviously and tried to fight through pain
- Healed fast
- His comment regarding not winning enough rounds was met with ridicule by everybody because by all accounts he did not even have to throw another single punch to win the fight.

- And was was Vitali's "alternative" for quitting if not injury? Something tells me this is out of context.

- Byrd could never have beaten Vitali in a rematch.. Neither could have LEnnox. Only a hater would posit otherwise.

So basically you are going to ignore the fact that both landed a similar amount of punches, and that Vitali himself thought he was going to lose, because a panel of judges in Germany thought otherwise? You're stretching it. The fight was competitive.

And Vitali said in a post-fight interview that there was an injury, but it was not the reason why he quit. He also admitted that he couldn't withstand Byrd's southpaw style.

Bowe ducked LEnnox to the end of time because he knew he'd be KOed.. Bowe, who got smashed by Golota whom LEnnox wasted in 1 round!.

Bowe ducked Lennox because of politics. A fight between them was in the making and then Lewis got knocked out by McCall.

Also, Golota was sedated right before the Lewis fight due to a knee injury and had a seizure in the dressing room afterwards. Well known.

So Lennox struggled a bit with MErcer, a common opponent. Yes LEnnox sometimes had a lacklustre performance, but he only 2ce didn't capitalise on them andthey were few and far between (henmce dominant).

Holyfield by contrast not only lost half as much as he won, but in nearly every single fight he struggled! Struggled against opponents that LEnnox would not even bother KOin, would KO easily and would never lose rounds to.

Only an Amercian would display such contempt for the British and Slavic dominant champs like this

Lewis struggled as much as Holyfield did. Holyfield "lost half as much as he won"? He was 36-3 going into the Lewis fight. One loss was to Bowe in their first fight and it was the only legitimate loss of his early career. In the third Bowe fight he had hepatitis and gassed out in the mid rounds, against Moorer he was diagnosed with cardiovascular problems and retired for a year right afterwards.

I'm going to assume you're not going to consider his loss streak in the 2000s when he was beyond washed up.

And again, Holyfield arguably beat Lewis in their second fight!!! Why are you ignoring this?

[Daddy T]

it's a myth. if you took the klitschkos out of the equation the best heavyweight of the last 6 or 7 years would be Povetkin and he's only what 225 or something?

Also without Wlad, Haye who is even lighter may have cleaned up the rest ... so basically, Povetkin 225 and Haye at what 210 or 215 would have had all the titles were it not for the brothers.

Heavyweights are a bit bigger these days but guys like Tyson, Holyfield or Ali would still imo be the best in the world if they were around now.