Jack Dempsey against Rocky Marciano

[mikeg1224]

I don't rate Jack Dempsey among my top 10 HWs, since I'm just not impressed with the caliber of his competition.

Let's set aside his last three (3) bouts which followed an almost three (3) year fighting hiatus--there were 2 against Tunney which he lost and 1 against Sharkey which he won controversially by a left hook KO immediately following his low blow foul--please see this video:
.

That leaves us with a bunch of wins against weak competition with his best wins coming against Willard, Firpo, and Gunboat Smith; for Pete's sake he was KOed by Fireman Flynn of all people.

Therefore, I see Marciano KOing Dempsey within 8 rounds.

[The Old LefHook]

Dempsey couldn't keep a man down or Willard and Firpo had springs in their asses. That's a punishing force of second concussion.

[Humean]

50/50 fight. Marciano was more of an attrition fighter with a higher punch output and harder one punch maybe BUT Dempsey was smarter, had better skills, and was considerably faster. This fight ends in a knockout. No way this goes the distance. Both guys showed a ton of heart and grit. Past prime Dempsey kept fighting even through swollen eyes and cuts. Same with Marciano. Neither man ever showed up grossly out of shape but rather in the best shape they could get in considering age.

Dempsey was a body puncher of the likes the division never really saw ever since, Tyson comes the closest but is still a distant second imo. Anyway, at the end of the day this is probably one of the hardest match ups but I just might favor Marciano if you put a gun to my head. Only because he retired undefeated and we never really saw him in any real trouble in terms of chin.

This is highly implausible. Dempsey was a pioneer who brought a greater degree of skill and ring craft to a brawling and slugging style than had perhaps been seen up to that point in time but he should not be considered somehow one of the best practitioners of that style 90s years after he last fought.

I don't rate Jack Dempsey among my top 10 HWs, since I'm just not impressed with the caliber of his competition.

Let's set aside his last three (3) bouts which followed an almost three (3) year fighting hiatus--there were 2 against Tunney which he lost and 1 against Sharkey which he won controversially by a left hook KO immediately following his low blow foul--please see this video:
.

That leaves us with a bunch of wins against weak competition with his best wins coming against Willard, Firpo, and Gunboat Smith; for Pete's sake he was KOed by Fireman Flynn of all people.

Therefore, I see Marciano KOing Dempsey within 8 rounds.

Dempsey's opposition was indeed very weak by pretty much any standard but it was the best that his time period could muster. This is the sort of inverse of the phenomenon of romanticizing these earlier fighters and presenting them as superior fighters to later generations. Both are false and unfair to the past in different ways.

"Marciano? Same result. Dempsey would have murdered Rocky. I tell you, Jack would have chased everyone out of the ring."

-Ray Arcel

If Ray Arcel said it then it must be true!

[ShoulderRoll]

If Ray Arcel said it then it must be true!

He was a trainer of fighters and actually saw both Dempsey and Marciano in the ring.

Does it make his statement automatically true? No. But surely his opinion carries a little more weight than others?

[ShoulderRoll]

"Consider that in the Dec. 1962 Ring magazine poll of 40 boxing experts it was Jack Dempsey that was rated the # 1 Heavyweight of all time with Joe Louis 2nd, Jack Johnson 3rd and Marciano finishing a distant 7th, way behind Dempsey."

-Monte Cox

[Humean]

He was a trainer of fighters and actually saw both Dempsey and Marciano in the ring.

Does it make his statement automatically true? No. But surely his opinion carries a little more weight than others?

All things being equal a little more but still not much. How often do you suppose he actually saw Dempsey fight? Likely not often when he was passing judgement on Dempsey's talents versus Marciano and others.

Look at the rest of his comments about Dempsey in comparison to other great heavyweights. (I'm assuming these quotes are accurate and Arcel actually said all of this)



�Dempsey would have absolutely beaten any fighter who came after him�without a doubt. I know all about Joe Louis and how he knocked guys?teeth out. I have every respect for Joe�I rate him number two. But Dempsey would have killed Louis, George Foreman, any of those guys. What Jack had was God-given�you can�t develop the kind of talent he had.

�Marciano? Same result. Dempsey would have murdered Rocky. I tell you, Jack would have chased everyone out of the ring. I trained Max Baer a couple of times and often got asked how good that booming right of his was and whether it was as good as anything Dempsey had. Are you kidding? It wasn�t even close.

�Mike Tyson might have got through a round with Dempsey, maybe two. People always asked me what Jack�s weaknesses were. That�s the point�at his best he didn�t have any.?

[The Old LefHook]

The Subtle Oldtimers Test. SOT. You simply take note of whether a particular cheerleader is overboard with many fighters from the era, or is it mainly reserved for Dempsey. A surprising number of old timers were Dempsey freaks. Almost all those real old timers are dead now. Connie Wills senior was such an old timer. His respect for Dempsey was prodigious. But, really what are you going to say, of course it was--he trained with Dempsey as a sparring partner for the Carpentier fight, so he knew that impact firsthand.

Still, a point of interest is that Dempsey often put them on the deck multiple times whereas Rocky gives them a one way ticket to canvas.

[ShoulderRoll]

All things being equal a little more but still not much. How often do you suppose he actually saw Dempsey fight? Likely not often when he was passing judgement on Dempsey's talents versus Marciano and others.

Look at the rest of his comments about Dempsey in comparison to other great heavyweights. (I'm assuming these quotes are accurate and Arcel actually said all of this)



�Dempsey would have absolutely beaten any fighter who came after him�without a doubt. I know all about Joe Louis and how he knocked guys?teeth out. I have every respect for Joe�I rate him number two. But Dempsey would have killed Louis, George Foreman, any of those guys. What Jack had was God-given�you can�t develop the kind of talent he had.

�Marciano? Same result. Dempsey would have murdered Rocky. I tell you, Jack would have chased everyone out of the ring. I trained Max Baer a couple of times and often got asked how good that booming right of his was and whether it was as good as anything Dempsey had. Are you kidding? It wasn�t even close.

�Mike Tyson might have got through a round with Dempsey, maybe two. People always asked me what Jack�s weaknesses were. That�s the point�at his best he didn�t have any.?/div>

None of what Arcel said there seems out of line. It's not unreasonable to pick Dempsey over Joe Louis or George Foreman or Mike Tyson.

Hell, Mike Tyson's style was molded off of Jack Dempsey by Cus D'Amato.

[Humean]

None of what Arcel said there seems out of line. It's not unreasonable to pick Dempsey over Joe Louis or George Foreman or Mike Tyson.

Hell, Mike Tyson's style was molded off of Jack Dempsey by Cus D'Amato.

Nothing he said seems out of line, you really genuinely think that?

Those quotes say that Dempsey had no weaknesses, that he'd beat every heavyweight in history and that Tyson would only last a couple of rounds with him. It is farcical.

Only partially moulded but so what, what does that prove? Is the first fighter to ever throw a jab the best jabber in history?

[ShoulderRoll]

Nothing he said seems out of line, you really genuinely think that?

Those quotes say that Dempsey had no weaknesses, that he'd beat every heavyweight in history and that Tyson would only last a couple of rounds with him. It is farcical.

Only partially moulded but so what, what does that prove? Is the first fighter to ever throw a jab the best jabber in history?

If people said Muhammad Ali would beat every heavyweight in history would you find that more palatable?

Ali is on the short list of nominees for best heavyweight ever so of course that's not a farcical statement.

But the same applies to Dempsey. He's on that short list too. Especially in the opinions of the old time boxing insiders who were actually around to see him fight.