Jack Dempsey against Rocky Marciano

[Humean]

If people said Muhammad Ali would beat every heavyweight in history would you find that more palatable?

Ali is on the short list of nominees for best heavyweight ever so of course that's not a farcical statement.

But the same applies to Dempsey. He's on that short list too. Especially in the opinions of the old time boxing insiders who were actually around to see him fight.

Saying that about Ali is far more palatable for several reasons.
1) He was clearly far better than Dempsey
2) He fought in an era in sport that was a lot closer to today in terms of professionalism, standards and rules than the 1960s and 70s was compared to the 1910s and 20s.
3) Ali was a bigger man, taller and heavier.

Those old time boxing insiders often idolized Dempsey, he was a great of his day, not only one of the greatest sportsman of his time but something of a national icon of the age. What possible value can old men comparing their memories of a fighter they saw in their younger days to other fighters? It is worthless.

[HOUDINI563]

It's much more than that. Experts of that time rated Dempsey as an ATG hwt champion. Not just casual fans....experts. Dempseys inside game was second to no one. Terrific short arm puncher. His bobbing and weaving and ability to close distance quickly are unmatched. I look to three ATG experts comments regarding Dempsey: Langford who stated Dempsey was the greatest fighter he had ever seen, Arcel who rated Dempsey alongside Louis and Ali and Sharkey who actually did say Dempsey punch for punch hit harder than Louis and he added: "I never thought anyone could hit that hard. When Dempsey hit you on the shoulder he broke your shoulder, when he hit you to the body it felt as if his fist was coming out your back if he hit you on your hip he dislocated your hip."

[Mr.MojoRisin']

This is highly implausible. Dempsey was a pioneer who brought a greater degree of skill and ring craft to a brawling and slugging style than had perhaps been seen up to that point in time but he should not be considered somehow one of the best practitioners of that style 90s years after he last fought.

It's not implausible at all. I'm going to take the fact that you were responding to my claims about Dempsey's body punching ability but never mention body punching at all in your post as an indication you haven't really studied Dempsey's or really any of the great heavyweights body punching ability.

Check out the Firpo and Gibbons fights as obvious indicators.

[Humean]

It's not implausible at all. I'm going to take the fact that you were responding to my claims about Dempsey's body punching ability but never mention body punching at all in your post as an indication you haven't really studied Dempsey's or really any of the great heavyweights body punching ability.

Check out the Firpo and Gibbons fights as obvious indicators.

It is highly implausible to think that a sportsman from the 1920s will excel in a particular sport or skill to a greater extent than anyone in the 90s years since. I'm sorry but that is just plain ******ity.

I've seen the footage of the Firpo and Gibbons fights many times. They show no such thing.

[billeau2]

"Marciano? Same result. Dempsey would have murdered Rocky. I tell you, Jack would have chased everyone out of the ring."

-Ray Arcel

ShoulderRoll you will find that quite a few of the older guys who have just passed and were around to see Dempsey thought he was the best and that it was no contest. These are men who saw Ali Louis, some even up to Lewis and Tyson. I am not making a judgement upon the opinions but Arcel is not alone... Tunney also felt this way. Its interesting.

[billeau2]

This is highly implausible. Dempsey was a pioneer who brought a greater degree of skill and ring craft to a brawling and slugging style than had perhaps been seen up to that point in time but he should not be considered somehow one of the best practitioners of that style 90s years after he last fought.



Dempsey's opposition was indeed very weak by pretty much any standard but it was the best that his time period could muster. This is the sort of inverse of the phenomenon of romanticizing these earlier fighters and presenting them as superior fighters to later generations. Both are false and unfair to the past in different ways.



If Ray Arcel said it then it must be true!

Dempsey ushered in the era of the puncher, what was to become the modern way of boxing. If you want to see a watershed fight watch Dempsey Tunney 1 where Tunney is basically fighting in a style that is the culmination of the James Figg, steps and set with a lead, style while Dempsey is forward weighted, imposing himself and using combinations of punches developed scientifically to give the boxer variety and the ability to strike with many weapons.

And it was not just Arcel...you have a mind for research, you will find that many of the great trainers who were around multi generation to the present thought Jack was the best with no contest.

You are baised in your prejudice that things must have progressed. As people have stated there is a lot of evidence that Dempsey was the goods. And there is nothing that says Dempsey could not be better than Ali.

[billeau2]

If people said Muhammad Ali would beat every heavyweight in history would you find that more palatable?

Ali is on the short list of nominees for best heavyweight ever so of course that's not a farcical statement.

But the same applies to Dempsey. He's on that short list too. Especially in the opinions of the old time boxing insiders who were actually around to see him fight.

Thiis is really annoying. Its not just a few punch drunk old timers...these were guys who actually saw guys fighting from dempsey onward so their opinion should count considering they bore witness. i don't know why people can't accept this.

Its not even my opinion necessarily but I certainly listen to guys who know the game, saw the guys in the ring, and feel that sure about saying how good Jack was. lol.

Its just a constant thing here with people wanting to assume boxing has evolved, wanting to assume that fighters conditioning for 45 rounds or so could not come into the ring for a 15 round fight a bit heavier if they wanted too...and not accepting that there is still no correlation to size and sucess as a heavyweight. The same old baloney. Dempsey was practically the second James Figg as he made boxing boxercentric and took away a lot of the fencing vocabulary used prior to his riegne.

Also, Dempsey was the first real boxing superstar...Sullivan was big but Dempsey and Babe Ruth were superstars. The reason fighters are not thought of as great comp for dempsey was fighters were not thought of as stars so we don't know necessarily how great a lot of fighters were that he fought.

[TonyGe]

Not watching every Dempsey fight that he had but just a few that I saw on YouTube the idea that he could beat guys like Ali and Holmes just doesn't seem realistic.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

It is highly implausible to think that a sportsman from the 1920s will excel in a particular sport or skill to a greater extent than anyone in the 90s years since. I'm sorry but that is just plain ******ity.

I've seen the footage of the Firpo and Gibbons fights many times. They show no such thing.

You say "sportsman". This isn't football, basketball, baseball, hockey or any other bull**** sport. This is boxing. You don't play boxing. Punching someone in the face has been around since the beginning of mankind. Fighters have DEVOLVED in the last 100 years. Skills have been lost and a more amateurish points oriented style has taken a stronger hold.

I honestly don't think you have the knowledge to speak on this subject. You compared boxing to other sports. You couldn't even argue from a boxing perspective you had to bring up other sports.

I could post plenty of clips of the Firpo and Gibbons fights that illustrate my point but I honestly don't think that is needed to any objective poster that knows what they're talking about.

[mikeg1224]

Humean,

You are incorrect when you say that Dempsey's opposition was the best that his period could offer, since you conveniently forget that Dempsey wanted no part of any of the colored HW fighters at that time. He would rather fight MWs like Georges Carpentier than tangle with the likes of Joe Jeanette.