Who would you take, bruce lee vs. Tyson

[billeau2]

Heres a treat!

This is the way we got down! Grabbing the gi? You bet! that was the way to make sure you nailed the guy with the reverse punch and did not get countered.

Watch the Joe Lewis David Moon bout: Moon looks janky? dud got his rib broken did not tell a soul and fought on... Tough was what it was about.

Again: this is point fighting...



Again no GDAMN BOUNCING!!!!!! Its not part of karate!!! grrrrrrr

[TBear]

Bit of a mismatch IMO.

[ShoulderRoll]

Chuck fought in those circles...it was all called point fighting back then. They would distinguish it by the amount of contact allowed, it was not called different names rather; "Point fighting, full contact to the body, no touch to the face" or... light contact to the face, etc. Norris fought Lewis I don't think he fought Wallace.

this is Norris in a "Point sparring" match.



Here is Norris against Lewis:



Things were sooo different then: Notice there is no bouncing? Lol. When we fought we never bounced, that started happening when kick boxing watered down both arts: Boxing and Karate. In Karate you stand your ground and throw your techniques...not today though... these kids bounce and hit so weak you have to ask the judge if the point scored.

Shoulder, it is a common misconception that "point fighting" was (as opposed to is) no contact. I could show you some great matches where many bones were broken... Lewis was indeed the worse offender, that sidekick of his sheeeesh! the thing was murder to deal with!

Joe Lewis excelled in point fighting but went on to be the father of American kickboxing. An innovation that was obviously needed as point karate wasn't cutting the mustard when it came to realistic full contact.

Lewis was able to make the transition seamlessly. As were other karate guys like Benny Urquidez.

Norris never proved that he could fight in that more realistic environment.

That being said, it's true that he took up Brazilian jujitsu later on in life (long after Bruce Lee had passed away.) Can't take that away from him.

[NachoMan]

Well, if Brad Pitt could kick Bruce Lee's ass, then Tyson puts him in the grave, right?

[billeau2]

Joe Lewis excelled in point fighting but went on to be the father of American kickboxing. An innovation that was obviously needed as point karate wasn't cutting the mustard when it came to realistic full contact.

Lewis was able to make the transition seamlessly. As were other karate guys like Benny Urquidez.

Norris never proved that he could fight in that more realistic environment.

That being said, it's true that he took up Brazilian jujitsu later on in life (long after Bruce Lee had passed away.) Can't take that away from him.

I disagree whole heartedly. Lets establish one important point here to simplify matters: Point karate is a misnoumer, thats a fact and its important so we know that when we talk about "point fighting we distinguish what we have today and what was.

the point fighting I pulled are techniques that easily break ribs and faces... It was cutting the mustard fine for what it was designed to do. Point fighting was trying to use karate as it would be used in karate and pitting guys against each other.

Most people like the transition to kick boxing, you speak of, I think it essentially put real karate into a medieval period... The dynamics of boxing and karate do not mix. They are different methods and what we got through kick boxing for the most part, bad karate and bad boxing. we also got decent boxers who learned to game the rules on kicking... so they would throw their 7 required kicks a round right away and box the remainder. Finally, we did get some great fighters... But they would have been great regardless of whether they were boxing, fighting full contact karate, or kick boxing. Great fighters are great fighters.

One more piece of proof: As badazz as the Joe Louis era was... the guys preceding them, before karate actually was established in the USA were much much better. Guys like "the beast" JOhn Blume, and Don Draeger... Heck, watch James Cagney do his Judo in "Blood on the sun"... These guys did not need any kickboxing to show they could fight... Fight is all they did and they were scary good. I would take a decent Judoka from that period over most of the brazilian guys today... they just practiced the basics over and over and were getting instruction on the art, and fighting with it!

In fact after the second world war Kodokan Judo was more akin to a bad nightclub that needs real bouncers...Guys would go in and partner up and randori for hours on end... Gradually great teachers came back to the fold, but people were constantly doing Randori so they could always fight with the stuff. Now a days in Judo it is very restrictive in tournaments.

My point is that when the Budo arts were practiced as intended, they were quite able... My own opinion, which is just an opinion, is that kickboxing, in gaining people who had horrible karate skills, never did much for the martial arts.

[ShoulderRoll]

I disagree whole heartedly. Lets establish one important point here to simplify matters: Point karate is a misnoumer, thats a fact and its important so we know that when we talk about "point fighting we distinguish what we have today and what was.

the point fighting I pulled are techniques that easily break ribs and faces... It was cutting the mustard fine for what it was designed to do. Point fighting was trying to use karate as it would be used in karate and pitting guys against each other.

Most people like the transition to kick boxing, you speak of, I think it essentially put real karate into a medieval period... The dynamics of boxing and karate do not mix. They are different methods and what we got through kick boxing for the most part, bad karate and bad boxing. we also got decent boxers who learned to game the rules on kicking... so they would throw their 7 required kicks a round right away and box the remainder. Finally, we did get some great fighters... But they would have been great regardless of whether they were boxing, fighting full contact karate, or kick boxing. Great fighters are great fighters.

One more piece of proof: As badazz as the Joe Louis era was... the guys preceding them, before karate actually was established in the USA were much much better. Guys like "the beast" JOhn Blume, and Don Draeger... Heck, watch James Cagney do his Judo in "Blood on the sun"... These guys did not need any kickboxing to show they could fight... Fight is all they did and they were scary good. I would take a decent Judoka from that period over most of the brazilian guys today... they just practiced the basics over and over and were getting instruction on the art, and fighting with it!

In fact after the second world war Kodokan Judo was more akin to a bad nightclub that needs real bouncers...Guys would go in and partner up and randori for hours on end... Gradually great teachers came back to the fold, but people were constantly doing Randori so they could always fight with the stuff. Now a days in Judo it is very restrictive in tournaments.

My point is that when the Budo arts were practiced as intended, they were quite able... My own opinion, which is just an opinion, is that kickboxing, in gaining people who had horrible karate skills, never did much for the martial arts.

The videos you posted are there for all to see, Billeau2.

If you think that style of point karate is close to a real fight then you are entitled to that opinion. But to me when you get penalized for "excessively hard contact" that doesn't mimic reality at all. And neither does stopping and restarting after the first clean hit.

I think Joe Lewis' kickboxing was a clear step up from those karate tournaments. And Muay Thai proved itself to be a step up even from that.

K-1 in the 1990's answered a lot of these questions as it allowed strikers from all kinds of different styles to compete with each other.

[billeau2]

The videos you posted are there for all to see, Billeau2.

If you think that style of point karate is close to a real fight then you are entitled to that opinion. But to me when you get penalized for "excessively hard contact" that doesn't mimic reality at all. And neither does stopping and restarting after the first clean hit.

I think Joe Lewis' kickboxing was a clear step up from those karate tournaments. And Muay Thai proved itself to be a step up even from that.

K-1 in the 1990's answered a lot of these questions as it allowed strikers from all kinds of different styles to compete with each other.

Ok lets break all these points down because they are addressing different things. Ill go in order:

The main thing about karate is that you generate a tremendous amount of force that is not seen. Now when an untrained individual looks at a grappling match, they see two guys rolling around and little else. As a matter of fact, up until the 80's when the Gracies came here, no one even thought a grappler would do well in a fight against a man who used striking as an expert. its the same thing with this fighting.

a) it is, for all practical purposes full contact to the body. Did you know that in that tape of the 1968 tourney Burleson and the Korean stylist had broken bones? they fought through it... Do you know what it does on the street when you break a man's ribs? Unfortunately I hit a big guy, lightly... and cracked his ribs. He went down like a gravity deprived thang and I Didn't believe him. Xrays confirmed... It looked like I tapped him. Because of the way striking works in the old systems (I hit him with a Ju Jutsu strike).

b) you stop and start because technically IF you hit with full force and catch, the fight is over... For example,



I guarantee if we watched this guy use that shuto with no target, every Tom **** and Harry would have a good laugh. Thing is? the guy was grounded and threw a half decent shuto strike, no kick boxing, no bouncing... sORRY ABOUT the pathological hatred of bouncing. Notice how he does not get into a back and fourth with the pimp. he never even allows the pimp to square up does he? He does not bounce around, or contest the pimp in a contest of skill...He hits with a shuto, not a great one, but good enough. thats how a martial art handles a situation like this.

You cannot compare kick boxing with Muay Thai... You can compare karate to muay Thai. Both arts, when you watch how they are represented in the Gracie tourneys and totally misrepresented. No licensed Muay Thai fighter has, to my knowledge fought a Gracie in any tournament. Kick boxers can never be as good at boxing, or karate, doing an art that does things that violate principles.

I understand your point about continuity. Its unfortunately a point that real martial artists have a different take upon. When it comes down to a fight, I do not want to get into a back and fourth at all. I will do everything in my power to not do so...it is risky. You are right that real fights can continue, but have you ever watched things like:

a) One guy is beating the other guy and mounts him, the guy being mounted, feeling desperate and life threatened, pulls out a knife and stabs the "winner" in the kidneys...winner winner, no chicken dinner (casket though). Fairbained watched this happen almost every time an honour fight happened in Vietnam where he was stationed.

b) Your body moves and acts very differently when you are fighting for your life... Think of it this way, you confront me about calling you a "pufter." No problem, your good...throw a jab, or two and bust my face a bit... fight over. your the boxer, and you have the skills... Now, I am twice your size, and am threatening to take your kid and **** him/her and I mean it! Do you think you will casually throw a few jabs to bust my face open?

Here is what will happen shoulder roll and I guarantee this, as far as I can without pulling rank (this is the kind of stuff I teach to defend against)... Your azz will pucker, you will get insanely angry, you will get very weak and shaky only to find that when you say to yourself "I don't give a fvk this mf is going down" you will get insanely strong. You will probably look more like those karate point fighters as you move towards the target and look to take it out as fast as you can...

In this type of confrontation you will go on autopilot and there will be no sense of eleborate ring strategies, any jab you do throw will be like a pole ax, and if someone grabs you? you will probably try to bite them, break their fingers, pick up a weapon, etc.

karate developed as a means of self defense and the Japanese turned it into a sport, a means of self development. But it was never designed to be a ring fighting system. The movement style is all wrong.

[The plunger man]

Tyson would punch a whole through Bruce Lee ......sometimes the aura of guy is not always what it seems.
Bruce less was great but he was 130lbs ffs.

[NachoMan]

I disagree whole heartedly. Lets establish one important point here to simplify matters: Point karate is a misnoumer, thats a fact and its important so we know that when we talk about "point fighting we distinguish what we have today and what was.

the point fighting I pulled are techniques that easily break ribs and faces... It was cutting the mustard fine for what it was designed to do. Point fighting was trying to use karate as it would be used in karate and pitting guys against each other.

Most people like the transition to kick boxing, you speak of, I think it essentially put real karate into a medieval period... The dynamics of boxing and karate do not mix. They are different methods and what we got through kick boxing for the most part, bad karate and bad boxing. we also got decent boxers who learned to game the rules on kicking... so they would throw their 7 required kicks a round right away and box the remainder. Finally, we did get some great fighters... But they would have been great regardless of whether they were boxing, fighting full contact karate, or kick boxing. Great fighters are great fighters.

One more piece of proof: As badazz as the Joe Louis era was... the guys preceding them, before karate actually was established in the USA were much much better. Guys like "the beast" JOhn Blume, and Don Draeger... Heck, watch James Cagney do his Judo in "Blood on the sun"... These guys did not need any kickboxing to show they could fight... Fight is all they did and they were scary good. I would take a decent Judoka from that period over most of the brazilian guys today... they just practiced the basics over and over and were getting instruction on the art, and fighting with it!

In fact after the second world war Kodokan Judo was more akin to a bad nightclub that needs real bouncers...Guys would go in and partner up and randori for hours on end... Gradually great teachers came back to the fold, but people were constantly doing Randori so they could always fight with the stuff. Now a days in Judo it is very restrictive in tournaments.

My point is that when the Budo arts were practiced as intended, they were quite able... My own opinion, which is just an opinion, is that kickboxing, in gaining people who had horrible karate skills, never did much for the martial arts.

Let me clear this up. Karate/Point Fighting/whateverthefckyoucallit is ******ed as hell. It's not real fighting so stop it. There are other forums for play fighting.

[billeau2]

Let me clear this up. Karate/Point Fighting/whateverthefckyoucallit is ******ed as hell. It's not real fighting so stop it. There are other forums for play fighting.

****** post... Take it to a ****** section please... learn to dispel ignorance not manufacture it. To play devil's advocate to your dumb comment, even of they both ******, they are very different variations of the same thing...and real sparring is not point fighting as it is called... You probably do not even want to know why it is called point fighting so I won't bother discussing it and wasting both our time.