Who would you take, bruce lee vs. Tyson

[Anthony342]

The West Coast is just more well known... You would have to trust me on that one being part of both communities at various times, and I understand your arguing a point and that would be a concession, thats cool. Also your mixing up things Shoulder. For example, Parker was never a fighter... Never fought in the tourneys. Interesting teacher, quick big man.

I will tell you why lewis was so highly regarded and it has nothing to do with his winning at kick boxing. Wallace was better in that rhealm and was never beat because no one could get past his round kick... Thats a fact. He also beat Lewis whatever that amounts to. Lewis was taught a side kick that is untelegraphed. He used to break peoples ribs in "point fighting" with this kick. It is sort of in between a back and side kick...more of a back kick or what is sometimes called a mule kick.

You misunderstood my point about HOW Karate and Muay Thai are similar: They are both pure arts. That was my point. It is relevant because: When a Gracie says "we beat all arts in our contest" they are beating up kick boxers...many of whom claim to be a Muay Thai or karate stylist. Muay Thai stylists and Karate used to fight have never fought in these events. That was the point.

You have to have been part of the people that fought in those circles unfortunately... I can't really show you proof, aside from fighting people from both areas, teaching on both coasts, including being a guest of honor at the first officially sanctioned professional full contact MMA card held in San Francisco...thank you very much... East Coast was always more brutal. But fighting dojo wars in Baltimore never got the press that big tourney promoters got on the Left Coast.

You guys mentioned Benny The Jet. Didn't he appear in a lot of movies and become famous for being the first kickboxer to wear long pants?

[uncle ben]

Also, why is Tyson weighing in at 190 lbs when he never fought below 200?

This. Tyson in his prime was always at least 215 pounds.

[billeau2]

Are you saying that you are even in the same ballpark as a Joe Lewis when it comes to standing in the karate world?

John Blume? Do you mean Jon Bluming? If so I'm very familiar with him already. He actually gave a 9th degree black belt to the founder of Daido Juku karate.

The same Daido Juku karate that was the style of Minoki Ichihara from UFC 2.

I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way but your arguments are typical of the stubborn traditionalists that had their world turned upside down by the Gracies.

Realistic fighting is here and it's here to stay my friend.

Even I'm not immune to the revolution, as much as I adore boxing and it's effectiveness I'm smart enough to know that I would get my ass handed to me on the ground. Which is why I cross train in BJJ and MMA from time to time when given the chance.

The karate world has an aspect that is not commercially viable and based on ability. It is not like a sport, not better, not worse, just different. Your credability in that world does not have anything to do with your success on the circuit. Thats not to take anything away from Lewis who was actually quite good. But quite good, not good as you see him based on his sport and commercial success. I have tried to give you some insight into what made him a respected fighter... It was his side kick, just like with Bill Wallas it was his round kick. I gave you specifics and not vague generalities deliberately.

My own credability in certain circles is very high. I fought challenge matches, opened up fight nights in Southern MD as a student that were held and had participants from two gigantic Military bases, the Washington DC area, and because I brought them down...Baltimore fighters. I am trying to send you in the right direction so you can see, rather than hear from me about my credability...I am not a braggert and I never liked to fight lol.

The Baltimore scene was pure fight...dojo fights, fights that broke out at tournaments...and my pedigree is the top dog in that environment...We fought full contact and yes there were plenty of people, even perhaps myself... I don't know, who could have fought Lewis and shown superiority. My teacher was a viscious fighter and Riley Hawkins, Arnold Mitchell were very fast and hard hitting. Riley Hawkins watched me at a tournament and told my teacher I was a crazy .... (translation: that boy can fight!) and I did well, so I do have confidence in my ability against Lewis lol. I had great legs actually lol.

The Beast from the East... I do get names confused...concussions, A real karate fighting man that has some history.

Quality control is a biatch... Yeah he may well have...Hey! Good for you you looked him up! I can't speak of his quality control but I can tell you this: One reason I did not give you a link to the students of hawkins of this generation, is the quality that I see. Its unfortunate. I don't like to talk down, but thats just not how riley got down and gave rank when I was coming up. Me? I gave very few BB out for that reason. My first BB was actually an openly gay man in Baltimore... Nice guy, had issues about people giving him grief. I fear for anyone who gave him grief after his trianing! But it took him ten years or so...took me 8 years to get my Nidan as the highest ranked of my sensei...8 years and a lot of remienders....Oy vay! Misspelling names at 55, arthritis, a bit of PTS for a few years...

My arguments are based on experience...I have studied Ju Jutsu at this point in my life longer than I have karate, by three times or so...I have trained MMA guys looking to up their game...I know the modern stylists and fighting environment. Thats why I am trying to tell you how much setting and different environments determine how we respond. You just have me wrongly pegged...I don't take insult, and if I were a stubborn traditionalist it would be probably regarding ancient Japanese Ju Jutsu that I would uphold.

What you do not see is how training eventually becomes more and more stratified. I started out fighting karate, then went to grappling systems and eventually to weapons. Weapons and using a sword, of all things, as a Japanese stylist makes you all grown up concerning combat.

Shoulder heres a trick question: what styles of fighting are based on real combat? What do you think? You have earned the right to call me a stubborn traditionalist, or anything else, just learn something in the process, that is all I ask. I have been teaching, practicing martial arts for almost 45 years now... including teaching in an MMA facility, I done picked up a few tings brudder!

[billeau2]

You guys mentioned Benny The Jet. Didn't he appear in a lot of movies and become famous for being the first kickboxer to wear long pants?

I thought it was hot pants! Benny kidding, don't hit me, let me take my glasses off first, oh wait don't wear glasses....

Benny was a great fighter, a lot of the kick boxers were...Just a very different fight form than karate. Then you had some decent boxers that would clean up the divisions because they could box, thats really what kind of happened...the boxers could be big fishes in small ponds because of the situation...Guys like the Canadian guy Therault?

[ShoulderRoll]

Shoulder heres a trick question: what styles of fighting are based on real combat? What do you think? You have earned the right to call me a stubborn traditionalist, or anything else, just learn something in the process, that is all I ask. I have been teaching, practicing martial arts for almost 45 years now... including teaching in an MMA facility, I done picked up a few tings brudder!

Real combat involves the use of weapons. So machine gunners, handgunners, Filipino martial artists, fencers, Japanese koryu etc.

Realistic unarmed styles to me would be things like boxing, Muay Thai, judo, wrestling, BJJ, sambo. Arts where you have to show and prove against a fully resisting opponent until you KO them, submit them, or time runs out.

[billeau2]

Real combat involves the use of weapons. So machine gunners, handgunners, Filipino martial artists, fencers, Japanese koryu etc.

Realistic unarmed styles to me would be things like boxing, Muay Thai, judo, wrestling, BJJ, sambo. Arts where you have to show and prove against a fully resisting opponent until you KO them, submit them, or time runs out.

Green K.....

Its on its way....

The Corona will not interfere with delivery times

The unarmed styles are different... They address combat from a different aspect is how I would say it for what it is worth. Do you know what the most dangerous martial art is statistically according to "Injuries?" Akido. Turns out those spectacular throws, are dangerous... I think Judo is second, not sure, this was as of about a few years back, things may have changed since more people are training.

A lot of the way we fight...despite us not realizing it, is social. Grappling is a way to fight for status, hence the proliferation of these systems in the older parts of the world. they allow us to hug each other til one submits. I am not being funny. When we throw hands there is always a position we take, and when we punch, or slap, it is not the way nature intended us to fight... Does this make these systems less deadly? No... But trained fighters approach a fight differently than untrained fighters.

Nature protects us top down, we have a forehead to protect the eyes, a chin to protect our throat, a stomach that protects the groin, etc. Yet to hit using gravity and force to the max, we have to hit down... Breaking in Karate is a way to understand this... I know I know... But its not for that, it is supposed to be to train the mind to exert full force. BUT when you power break... I have broken around 6 slabs of concrete, you have to be over the object for the force to go through. Thats our nature.

The battle field teaches according to natural selection of a sort...Many interesting and great systems of the past simply did not survive the battle fields, I am most familiar with Japan regarding this aspect. What we often see today are the systems that were relatively simple, effective, and could ensure transmission.

How do we ensure transmission? Is it being the best? Interesting question lol. Would you rather be the last surviving out of two students in a system that was spectacular? Or be a dog...hit up every pretty lady and get you some sons?

One of the problems with courting "realism" is that we are social creatures, and we have to consider legal issues. Submission fighting is effective in social situations where most of the fighting is status based... In a bar, in a schoolyard, for example. It also can be used when trained for the purpose of self protection. Judo was used as a base system for many very effective self defense systems. But it often has to be modified, which all arts should be frankly.

From my experience, when you learn to think metabolically and not socially, you soon realize how the battle field systems worked in life and death combat. I will give you one tip I learned, and something that means a lot Shoulder: The biggest difference between mental conditioning for the ring, versus for self preservation...And this is particularly true for grappling, is a sports fighter is taught to get position first and then apply tecnique, where as the self protection specialist is taught the opposite.

Why is this so important? Because martial arts tecnique has to be done reflexively, with no thinking...Your conscious mind should have to catch up to what you just did.... By the time you are thinking about what you should do, when attacked, it is done. Now are you starting to see some reasons why the ring is a particular element of fighting? When we box, we both make a social contract with each other that we will try to punch, even if we say we are going full contact with all techniques, we make a similar contract.

Once that contract is made, we are trying to strategize, etc... Different mindset entirely. I am not saying any particular art here so much as the different preparation and type of action engaged in differs depending on training. Ultimately Karate do which came from SHure-te, or karate, came to embrace competition and self development. Originally it was done more as a self protection system. In my thinking? I was fine with the competition until the body dynamics changed the art and made it into something that did not function the same as the original.

[HOUDINI563]

In a boxing match no martial arts fighter has a chance vs any great heavyweight champion. In an mma type fight the scales tip the other way. However a small guy like Lee any blow from Tyson ends it.

[ron davis]

Tyson wouldn't get a chance, Lee wins in a split second.

Kick to balls, which is legal!

[billeau2]

Tyson wouldn't get a chance, Lee wins in a split second.

Kick to balls, which is legal!

Trouble maker!