Kickboxing Should Be Called Kicking

[Pork Chop]

I started at this gym out here called Humble Dragon. It's more of a tae kwon do school but teaching kickboxing. I'm looking to move out to Sacramento to train at Uriah faber's gym though

checked out your school's website and really couldn't find much out about them.
not sure if it's the same there, but in Texas there are a lot of Tae Kwon Do schools saying they teach muay thai with absolutely no muay thai background.
Not trying to bash your gym, because i know nothing about how you guys train, but just wanted to let you know that i've seen that kinda thing happen before.

[Pork Chop]

... the dude was aiming low, or i'm too tall and he totally clipped my toes man, injured it for like 3 days..

I'm a d!ck sometimes when i check kicks, coz i'll barely lift my foot off the ground. Depends what kinda mood i'm in, but if i think a guy's gonna do that kinda stuff, i'll intentionally use the fattest part of my shin/knee to check the kick. usually the leg kicks slow down a bit after that.

I've trained at Chakuriki and Vos Gym, i've seen the Slamm fighters and fighters of Lucien Carbin,

i'm envious
i'd like to visit holland one day
was supposed to take my kid to see his grandparents in japan this year, was going to drop him off and stay in thailand a couple weeks at a camp, unfortunately money's tight and i'm in the middle of a master's degree so i had to scrap the plan.
my ultimate goal is to settle down in okinawa though (prefecture my wife's from & where I went to high school). once there, i want to try to train with the coach that Andy Hug was training with towards the end of his career. or maybe I'll open up a gym of my own someday.

[Phenomkidd]

Without reading too much of the topic, from the TS post I'll say its ******ed to compare boxing and kickboxing like that (clear cut) as its not the same sport/style. Different objectives, rules, techniques, stances, etc.

[thatjamaicanguy]

this brings UFC to mind. it's amazing to me that UFC "fighters" don't know how to punch in there.

they keep such a huge distance, and run scared.

'cept for my favorite UFC fighter, Mike Brown. that boy can punch

[Phenomkidd]

Try watching more if you're really serious about that.

[thatjamaicanguy]

oh, i'm serious

but i still respect UFC fighter for what they do, like i respect boxers.

but i like the punchers the most

[envirocopy512]

Even if kickboxing and boxing are different sports, a punch is still a better knockout tool than a kick. Kickboxers would be well served to learn how to box better, rather than using their punches to set up kicks that look pretty and don't feel great to get hit with, but probably won't stop the guy. Head kicks are just too easy to block/evade. Body kicks rarely stop people. And leg kicks generally don't stop guys that know how to check kicks properly.

Having this diversity in your kicks IS a good way to make you more unpredictable (will he punch or kick me?), but it don't mean as much if you can't bust a g****.

[Fearless]

But the big thing he HAS tried to "adjust" is my stance. And that's never gonna change.

If you wanted to become a serious kickboxer you have to adjust the stance, but I guess you just wanted to do to compliment your boxing.

That said, a lot of kickboxers, especially Thai boxers aren't great at punching, though there are the exceptions like Anuwat Kaeswamrit, who has good boxing skills.

[EzzardFan]

Even now people from other disciplines still surprise me with their almost total ignorance of boxing. Their complete lack of comprehension of how hard a boxer is to hit, an how hard he can punch.

When it comes to kicking there is a SERIOUS flaw in most martial arts that claim to have a practical application. Wait let me correct that, they are littered with serious flaws and there is one glaring one: they take their shoes off. Putting the shoes back on is a game changing modification. Those turning kicks become obsolete. There are only three kicks worth throwing: primarily lead side kick to knee and lead snap kick to groin (shin and bottom rib also being worthy targets), secondarily rear step through kick to shin. The first two are thrown with the lead leg, like a jab. I'll deal with some of the other flaws later...

There are five criticisms that people can level against boxing as a means of self protection:

1) There's no kicking, so a boxer doesn't have to deal with kicks.
2) There's no grappling and a boxer doesn't have to deal with takedowns.
3) The boxer is protected with gloves and wrapped hands.
4) There is a ring, a referee, a doctor, and rules.
5) It doesn't make use of other weapons like elbows, knees...

But boxing doesn't pretend to be anything other than a sport.

Those criticisms are actually quite easy to address if someone had the urge to build a self defence system around boxing:

1) Kicking is good as a set piece move, when everything kicks off so to speak, outside of that it's fairly limited and not really worth the risk as it compromises one's balance. Teaching a boxer the 3 kicks listed above would only take a few hours. More importantly is kick defence. Evasion is useful and the boxer just needs to tune into the range difference. Outside of that it is essential to stop kicks at their source, that being when the foot is still close to the ground. Here's the big secret (not well known in martial arts) you stop kicks primarily with your feet (provided you have shoes on), just insert the sole of your shoe into the trajectory of the kick, so that the kickers shin strikes the sole of your foot. You can use either foot to block, just draw your leg up and back with the foot sticking out. You need to be FAST! If it's not possible to block with the feet (turning kicks being trickier) then you insert your knee or elbow in the path of the kick, again striking the shin of the kicker. NEVER lower your guard against a kick. If a kick slips through to head height, aside from being Christmas, you just take it on your guard the way you would a punch. Thats really it in a nutshell.

2) Going to the ground in a street situation is very dangerous as it is almost impossible to defend against a knife on the ground, and there are no rules against knives in the street. It is also suicide to deal with multiple opponents from the ground, and other people can arrive and join in at any time. The key for the boxer is to train take down defence, how to get off the ground fast, and escapes from the mount, the guard, and side control. Also remember to make use of sticking thumbs in eyes...

3) There is a lot you can do to build up the hands and wrists. Multi-pronged approach is knuckle pushups (flatten knuckles builds up wrists), finger pushups (avoid staving), hitting wooden surfaces (builds up bones), hitting a hard bag without gloves (thickens skin). However striking the head with a fist remains problematic, the top of the skull and the teeth both presenting dangers. The work around is to place punches more carefully, only really aiming for the shutdown button, and make use of heel palms when no clean shot is available. Punching to the body works fine though

4) Learn to strike to the back of the head and neck, and especially to the groin.

5) Elbows and knees have their uses, mainly as finishing tools. Knees can be risky against someone that knows how to block one with an elbow or to work a takedown, so I would limit them to someone in a very compromised position. Elbows have their uses, particularly when striking someone who is tightly shelled, or hitting them on the back of the neck from above. Some boxers already have more than a passing familiarity with elbows

Moving on it's worth looking at where boxing lends itself to self protection and also where other systems fall down.

The biggest strength of boxing is that it teaches fighting in the most dynamic way, which is actually getting in a ring and doing it. The boxer learns about range, about how not to get hit, how to hit with maximum force, and how to go about breaking an opponent down and winning a fight. The boxer also benefits greatly from the experience of being hit... a lot. Boxing is METHOD based.

The biggest weakness in martial arts is the lack of all of the above. Martial arts are technique based. They teach a bunch of techniques with very little practical experience of implementing them against a moving resisting opponent, and no guidance in how to break the opponent down and beat him. Ironically there is very little emphasis put on power generation. Martial arts are TECHNIQUE based.

A funny story... at work I have a black rubber opponent dummy. It's got a sand filled base and bobs around on a huge spring. A colleague was learning Tsu Tsang Do (or some ****ing thing). He was telling me how this was far superior to boxing because they had this punching technique that enabled them to strike with much greater force. I got him to hit the dummy and it's going bip bop bip bop back and forth as he throw these weird corkscrew arm punches from a high guard. Then I hit the dummy with one lead hook and knocked the bastard over. Case closed.

[Fearless]

Even now people from other disciplines still surprise me with their almost total ignorance of boxing. Their complete lack of comprehension of how hard a boxer is to hit, an how hard he can punch.

When it comes to kicking there is a SERIOUS flaw in most martial arts that claim to have a practical application. Wait let me correct that, they are littered with serious flaws and there is one glaring one: they take their shoes off. Putting the shoes back on is a game changing modification. Those turning kicks become obsolete. There are only three kicks worth throwing: primarily lead side kick to knee and lead snap kick to groin (shin and bottom rib also being worthy targets), secondarily rear step through kick to shin. The first two are thrown with the lead leg, like a jab. I'll deal with some of the other flaws later...

There are five criticisms that people can level against boxing as a means of self protection:

1) There's no kicking, so a boxer doesn't have to deal with kicks.
2) There's no grappling and a boxer doesn't have to deal with takedowns.
3) The boxer is protected with gloves and wrapped hands.
4) There is a ring, a referee, a doctor, and rules.
5) It doesn't make use of other weapons like elbows, knees...

But boxing doesn't pretend to be anything other than a sport.

Those criticisms are actually quite easy to address if someone had the urge to build a self defence system around boxing:

1) Kicking is good as a set piece move, when everything kicks off so to speak, outside of that it's fairly limited and not really worth the risk as it compromises one's balance. Teaching a boxer the 3 kicks listed above would only take a few hours. More importantly is kick defence. Evasion is useful and the boxer just needs to tune into the range difference. Outside of that it is essential to stop kicks at their source, that being when the foot is still close to the ground. Here's the big secret (not well known in martial arts) you stop kicks primarily with your feet (provided you have shoes on), just insert the sole of your shoe into the trajectory of the kick, so that the kickers shin strikes the sole of your foot. You can use either foot to block, just draw your leg up and back with the foot sticking out. You need to be FAST! If it's not possible to block with the feet (turning kicks being trickier) then you insert your knee or elbow in the path of the kick, again striking the shin of the kicker. NEVER lower your guard against a kick. If a kick slips through to head height, aside from being Christmas, you just take it on your guard the way you would a punch. Thats really it in a nutshell.

2) Going to the ground in a street situation is very dangerous as it is almost impossible to defend against a knife on the ground, and there are no rules against knives in the street. It is also suicide to deal with multiple opponents from the ground, and other people can arrive and join in at any time. The key for the boxer is to train take down defence, how to get off the ground fast, and escapes from the mount, the guard, and side control. Also remember to make use of sticking thumbs in eyes...

3) There is a lot you can do to build up the hands and wrists. Multi-pronged approach is knuckle pushups (flatten knuckles builds up wrists), finger pushups (avoid staving), hitting wooden surfaces (builds up bones), hitting a hard bag without gloves (thickens skin). However striking the head with a fist remains problematic, the top of the skull and the teeth both presenting dangers. The work around is to place punches more carefully, only really aiming for the shutdown button, and make use of heel palms when no clean shot is available. Punching to the body works fine though

4) Learn to strike to the back of the head and neck, and especially to the groin.

5) Elbows and knees have their uses, mainly as finishing tools. Knees can be risky against someone that knows how to block one with an elbow or to work a takedown, so I would limit them to someone in a very compromised position. Elbows have their uses, particularly when striking someone who is tightly shelled, or hitting them on the back of the neck from above. Some boxers already have more than a passing familiarity with elbows

Moving on it's worth looking at where boxing lends itself to self protection and also where other systems fall down.

The biggest strength of boxing is that it teaches fighting in the most dynamic way, which is actually getting in a ring and doing it. The boxer learns about range, about how not to get hit, how to hit with maximum force, and how to go about breaking an opponent down and winning a fight. The boxer also benefits greatly from the experience of being hit... a lot. Boxing is METHOD based.

The biggest weakness in martial arts is the lack of all of the above. Martial arts are technique based. They teach a bunch of techniques with very little practical experience of implementing them against a moving resisting opponent, and no guidance in how to break the opponent down and beat him. Ironically there is very little emphasis put on power generation. Martial arts are TECHNIQUE based.

A funny story... at work I have a black rubber opponent dummy. It's got a sand filled base and bobs around on a huge spring. A colleague was learning Tsu Tsang Do (or some ****ing thing). He was telling me how this was far superior to boxing because they had this punching technique that enabled them to strike with much greater force. I got him to hit the dummy and it's going bip bop bip bop back and forth as he throw these weird corkscrew arm punches from a high guard. Then I hit the dummy with one lead hook and knocked the bastard over. Case closed.

I agree with most part, except that I would classify Boxing as a martial art, if you put kickboxing/muay thai in that category, then so should Western Boxing. I agree with you on most part, especially the importance of boxing. I was sparring someone kickboxing, and someone was watching (this was a long time ago, when I was starting up) and he made an advise to master your boxing skills, which to this day I agree.

That said, I do find that your later part of your post is a little too bias on Boxing. I don't want to start a "Which martial arts style" is the strongest and I understand that this is, afterall, a boxing forum. I don't think there is a martial art that is perfect. There are indeed some that are more effective than others on paper. I personally believe that you can craft the sharpest blade on Earth or develop the lightest gun with the most powerful bullets that can penetrate through absolutely anything. But if the wielder isn't competent enough then the object (which in this case, the skills/technique in martial arts of any form) is useless.

I do want to know what you mean behind boxing is method? Because everytime people ask about punching power on the forums, you will always get "Its mainly about technique." Now isn't that the same as kicking?

Bruce Lee said it best when he said that people are so confined by styles they treat it as a "Gospel", I believe that when you are talking about FIGHTING in general, it is more about how you as an individual can execute whatever technique you have learnt in the most effective way and of course to adapt and be flexible whilst executing it. It doesn't matter what style someone's using... take your story at the end for example, you and your friend could switch roles and you would probably knock the bastard over with whatever the name of the MA that your friend was showing you and your friend would have had trouble boxing the bag... this is assuming that you are the better conditioned individual.

If I was to be bias with boxing in its application to general fighting, I would say that it takes less effort to punch then to kick. Yet that lack of effort can generate a more efficient amount of power than a kick... notice I said efficient and not powerful because I'm just simply referring to the amount of energy used to the power exerted ratio here.

Oh speaking of Bruce Lee, I think the method you were referring to to stop a kick is similar to the ankle tap that he does in JKD right? Watch the Chuck Norris VS Bruce Lee fight at the end of Way of the Dragon.

AGAIN: I am not saying you are wrong, nor am I trying to start a which martial arts is the best method, and I'm just using Bruce Lee as a person I can reference to about the philosophies of Martial arts. So please don't get sensitive about anything I just said.