Why not Holmes over Ali?

[Dr. Z]

This is your way of deflecting. You're the only one who has been "put into the cheap seats" from the very beginning of this thread when you claimed Holmes said Ali kicked him out of training camp for being to fast. You tried posting a video....no Holmes saying that. You tried saying it was in a book....no Holmes saying that. At every turn you've been taken to task. Just give it up already. It doesn't matter if Holmes could have beaten Ali in '77, he didn't and history has been written. Both were great fighters, but only one was "The greatest"!!

Not so. I told you to read facing Ali, cowboy.





As for your sidekick Ivich, I will reply just for you. I try not to talk with Alts. You wanted proof of them, remember? Incapable and Bronson are Ivich. So, Ali was floored by Banks, and early won a decsion over Doug Jones! These guys were cruiserwieghts that can not punch. But Cooper could punch and he knocked Ali sllly. Dudee gave Ali illegal smelling slalts and his eyes were like pinballs when he came to.

Holmes was floored by unranked Kevin Isaac.and unranked Renaldo Snipes!
StrikeTwo!

And Holmes won both fights habdly. Sinpes could ****.

Holmes did not have a good left hook.Ali floored and ko'd iron chinned Bonavena with left hooks.
Strike Three

!

Okay, Ali did KO Bonevena with a hook. The only time he has KO a man with a hook. You point?

Holmes had major issues with Carl Williams jab and Ken Norton's jab. Newsflash everyone has issues with great jabbers! Strike Four

!

Yawn, Holmes beat Notron. Ali lost to him. I say twice. Ali had trouble with good jabers as I have chronicled. Homes beat them.
ntarily.

Holmes had a slightly better chin? Did he? Was it tested against Foreman,Lyle, Frazier,Liston? Shavers dropped a prime Holmes,he couldn't drop a past prime Ali.
Strike Six!

Yeah he did. Shavers delivered a true a bomb to Holmes chin.. Holmes got up and won almost ever other round! Holmes fought Smith, McCall, Mercer, Witherspoon, Cooney, Shavers, Weaver, Norton and R. Williams. All were punchers. IMO, he took a slighty better shot than Ali as he was down less, out on his feet less, and rested far less.


Now that these questions have been answered , you can pm you buddy and ask him in what year does he think Holmes would have beaten Ali. I say 1977. He is affarid to answer this question directly...hiding behind an Alt.

END.

[Bronson66]

Not so. I told you to read facing Ali, cowboy.





As for your sidekick Ivich, I will reply just for you. I try not to talk with Alts. You wanted proof of them, remember? Incapable and Bronson are Ivich. So, Ali was floored by Banks, and early won a decsion over Doug Jones! These guys were cruiserwieghts that can not punch. But Cooper could punch and he knocked Ali sllly. Dudee gave Ali illegal smelling slalts and his eyes were like pinballs when he came to.



And Holmes won both fights habdly. Sinpes could ****.

!

Okay, Ali did KO Bonevena with a hook. The only time he has KO a man with a hook. You point?

!

Yawn, Holmes beat Notron. Ali lost to him. I say twice. Ali had trouble with good jabers as I have chronicled. Homes beat them.
ntarily.



Yeah he did. Shavers delivered a true a bomb to Holmes chin.. Holmes got up and won almost ever other round! Holmes fought Smith, McCall, Mercer, Witherspoon, Cooney, Shavers, Weaver, Norton and R. Williams. All were punchers. IMO, he took a slighty better shot than Ali as he was down less, out on his feet less, and rested far less.


Now that these questions have been answered , you can pm you buddy and ask him in what year does he think Holmes would have beaten Ali. I say 1977. He is affarid to answer this question directly...hiding behind an Alt.

END.

Never had an alt by that name or any other.
Incapable was not me.Sorry Mendoza.Ive had 2 User names here and 2 on Classic/
Who did Holmes ko with a hook?
Everyone has trouble with good jabbers
Among those Ali beat were.
Cooper
Jones
Lyle
Norton x2
Folley
Liston x2
Ellis
Mathis
Terrell
Bugnerx2
Young

That's more good jabbers than Holmes ever faced.
NB .There is NOTHING in the book Facing Ali that says Ali fired Holmes or asked him to leave his camp.I have the book and I challenge you to produce ANYTHING that says, suggests, or implies otherwise.we both know that you won't!

Contrary to your lie Ali was knocked down by 1 unranked fighter. Holmes by 2.Holmes was also KD in the Olympic Trials by Duane Bobick.

Sonny Banks stopped14 of his 18victims for a near78% ko percentage.He was known for his left hook.
Watch the fight and tell me he couldn't punch!



In the next round Ali knocks him down with,guess what ? A left hook! You are ridiculous!

ps Ali was only a couple of pounds heavier than Banks
.
NO heavyweight has faced more top level punchers than ALI. Shavers floored a prime Holmes ,but he couldn't floor a past prime Ali.
I am AFFARID? Does that jive with;
HABDLY,SINPES,BONEVENA,JABERS, DECSION,SLLLY, NOTRON, DUDEE, SLALTS , NTARILY,SLIGHTY?

MENDOZA SPEAK? LOL

Why would I be afraid of you ? You illiterate Chimp?

You don't want to answer me? Of course you don't!

I rip you a new ASS every time you do!

[JAB5239]

Not so. I told you to read facing Ali, cowboy.





As for your sidekick Ivich, I will reply just for you. I try not to talk with Alts. You wanted proof of them, remember? Incapable and Bronson are Ivich. So, Ali was floored by Banks, and early won a decsion over Doug Jones! These guys were cruiserwieghts that can not punch. But Cooper could punch and he knocked Ali sllly. Dudee gave Ali illegal smelling slalts and his eyes were like pinballs when he came to.



And Holmes won both fights habdly. Sinpes could ****.

!

Okay, Ali did KO Bonevena with a hook. The only time he has KO a man with a hook. You point?

!

Yawn, Holmes beat Notron. Ali lost to him. I say twice. Ali had trouble with good jabers as I have chronicled. Homes beat them.
ntarily.



Yeah he did. Shavers delivered a true a bomb to Holmes chin.. Holmes got up and won almost ever other round! Holmes fought Smith, McCall, Mercer, Witherspoon, Cooney, Shavers, Weaver, Norton and R. Williams. All were punchers. IMO, he took a slighty better shot than Ali as he was down less, out on his feet less, and rested far less.


Now that these questions have been answered , you can pm you buddy and ask him in what year does he think Holmes would have beaten Ali. I say 1977. He is affarid to answer this question directly...hiding behind an Alt.

END.

It's not in the book "Facing Ali" . If so please give us the page number. And Bronson is a new user name, not an alt. An alt has multiple accounts on one site. And if you think it's an alt and you don't respond to "alts" as you say.....you have a funny way of showing it. As far as this ridiculous thread goes, you have been taken to school and are looking foolish. You don't seem to be here to seriously talk boxing. You just want to make outrageous claims, make up lies to support it and get attention. Is that why you were banned, because you keep trolling?

[Bronson66]

Ali was incredible, but Holmes had a lot going for him too. Larry's jab was lethal, and he had a more well-rounded attack with that solid right cross, body shots, and hooks. From what I've seen and read, Holmes seemed to have a tougher chin and handled himself better in the ring against different styles.

I think if Holmes and Ali fought in their primes, Larry could've really challenged Ali. He was quick and technically sound, and I feel like Holmes might have edged out a close decision. It's impressive how Holmes managed to hold his own against the best, while Ali had some tough moments with similar opponents.

As wrote in the New York Times, "As soon as Mike Weaver landed one of those big right hands, the people in the rafters started chanting 'WeaVER, WeaVER' for a heavyweight most of them had never heard of until the match was made." Back and forth it went over the middle rounds, not always pretty, but damned compelling. Holmes jabbed and tried to land rights. Weaver bombed him back with right hands and left hooks. Holmes claimed later not to be bothered by the crowd. "I heard them yelling for him but it didn't mean anything. At the time, he was beating the hell out of me. So they yelled for him. When I was beating the hell out of him, they was yelling for me," he said. The two pounded away at one another in the eighth and ninth rounds. At the start of the 10th, Holmes told Weaver, "I'm the champion. There's no way you're gonna beat me." Weaver replied: "I'm gonna try." They slugged away through the 10th and deep into the 11th. Both men were hurt more than once. With 12 seconds left in the 11th, Holmes willed everything he had left into a right uppercut that caught Weaver clean and dropped him hard. The rest between rounds wasn't enough. At the start of the 12th Holmes pinned Weaver against the ropes and pummeled him until referee Harold Valan stopped it. Finally it was over.
Weaver was 19-8-0

• Holmes v Witherspoon.
• The crowd booed when the decision was announced in favor of Holmes. Many felt that Witherspoon deserved the verdict. A straw poll taken at ringside had Witherspoon winning by two points. listed the fight as one of its ten most controversial fights of all-time.
• Witherspoon had had just 15 fights.

Holmes v Williams.

• of the Associated Press scored the fight 145-140 for Holmes. He gave Holmes rounds 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15. Williams was given rounds 2, 5, 6, 11 and 14.
• Some who saw the fight thought that Williams had won. The Toledo Blade reported: "A smattering of boos cascaded from high up in the Lawlor Events Center when it was announced that Holmes had retained his International Boxing Federation title with a unanimous 15-round decision."
• Williams had fought just 16 times.

Holmes v Smith.
From Sports Illustrated:

After winning the first four rounds and landing several straight rights that had little effect on Smith, Holmes got caught with a big right in the fifth after missing with one of his own. Immediately, Holmes hung on and walked the inexperienced Smith around the ring until his head cleared. Then toward the end of the seventh, Smith came out of a crouch after ducking a right hand and hit his head against Holmes's brow, opening a deep wound. Despite the efforts of cut man Percy Richardson, the bleeding continued almost unabated.

In the eighth Holmes was caught with a wicked right, and again he had to hold on. After the round, trainer told Holmes to stop loading up with the right hand and to box. "Larry sacrificed some of his skills going for the knockout," said Futch. "I told him to move and jab more, and to throw the right hand from a shorter distance so Bonecrusher's counter would go over his shoulder."

Holmes took control, hurting Smith with a Futch-designed short right in the 11th that tore open Smith's left eyelid. Holmes continued to work on the cut in the 12th until referee asked Dr. Donald Romeo to look at it. When the doctor informed Smith that the cut was serious and asked Smith if he wanted to continue, Bonecrusher said, "Call it off." The cut required 20 stitches.
Smith was 14-0-1

[Bronson66]

Larry has the better record under 35.

He beat more contenders in the ring ****zine's top ten*

Holmes had the best all time jab. Like Ali he had a good right cross. Unlike Ali, he had a decent body attack, a left hook, and uppercut! A superior skilled fighter, Larry was. Ali was more limited in attack.

He was not floored by non top ten fighters! Ali was down from them quite a few times . IMO Holmes had a slightly better chin.

Holmes did not rest on the ropes, gas or or punch himself out as an under 40 year old fighter. Ali did.

Ali had major issues with good jabbers ( Jones, Norton, Young, Lyle, Holmes ) at all stages of his career from multiple men. Hmmm, Holmes had a great jab.



But, but, but Ali beat Foreman! Ah yes, Forman ducked Homles in the 70's and 90's. But he fought Jimmy Young. And Young whipped him, and was ROBBED on the official score cards vs Ali. Sub in Holmes for Young and Boxing has a new #1 fighter for sure.

But, but, but, Holmes beat an old Ali. Yes-- he did. Looking at the match Ali did not win one 30 second segment of the nine rounds. Holmes did not want to hurt Ali, but he would have ... Dundee prevented him from being knocked out by TKO or KO. The fight ended with Ali one his stool.

So how is #1? Fan's can clutch at Joe Louis. But putting him aside, the real question is this. What year can Holmes beat Ali? 1980 we know. 1979? yep. 1978? Very likely. 1977? Well Let's say Ali fought Holmes then. Who do you like? I say Larry does a Jimmy Young and ten some on Ali wins a SD with one judges card being suspect for Ali the other two clearly going for Holmes. Holmes via split decision.


Ali kicked Holmes out of his camps in the mid 1970's because Holmes was too fast for him. That is the reason. Those are the facts. Those gym wars happened. Think about that.

So what did Ali do clearly better than Holmes? I'll be fair. READY? Ali was a better clincher in the ring and a much better talker outside of it. And Ali tended to be gifted on the cards, while Holmes wasn't.

So what is your take on this question? I often leanr the most from knowledgeable fans who disagree with me, and give me some words or facts I did not think about.

"Ali had major issues with good jabbers ,Jones " Ali had no issue with Jones jab which he hardly landed.Jones strategy was to get close enough to land his money punch, his right cross.Ali won the battle of the jabs such as it was.
Watch the fight ,you muppet!



Foreman had a good jab, so did Liston,Terrell, Cooper,Lyle Mathis,Ellis,Folley,Bugner ,M Foster.

How many of them beat Ali?

[billeau2]

"Ali had major issues with good jabbers ,Jones " Ali had no issue with Jones jab which he hardly landed.Jones strategy was to get close enough to land his money punch, his right cross.Ali won the battle of the jabs such as it was.
Watch the fight ,you muppet!



Foreman had a good jab, so did Liston,Terrell, Cooper,Lyle Mathis,Ellis,Folley,Bugner ,M Foster.

How many of them beat Ali?

Yet another one of those things I do not understand. Heavyweights coming in "heavy" and in this day and age? A free search of Youtube will allow one to watch most fights... Yet people seem to not do this. Also a cursory look at Ali would reveal that given his head movement and other gifts, jabs are not a weakness for him. Ali was susceptable to pressure, to being timed, because he would often move straight back... He could gas (later in his career) and be caught on the ropes...

I could be wrong about this but seems to me the only boxer good enough to outwit Ali with subtle touches... like perhaps even a jab, would be Jimmy Young (and maybe Leon Spinks). Have to watch the spinks fight again though because I remember Leon winning more from attrition.

[Kid Cauliflower]

Never had an alt by that name or any other.
Incapable was not me.Sorry Mendoza.Ive had 2 User names here and 2 on Classic/
Who did Holmes ko with a hook?
Everyone has trouble with good jabbers
Among those Ali beat were.
Cooper
Jones
Lyle
Norton x2
Folley
Liston x2
Ellis
Mathis
Terrell
Bugnerx2
Young

That's more good jabbers than Holmes ever faced.
NB .There is NOTHING in the book Facing Ali that says Ali fired Holmes or asked him to leave his camp.I have the book and I challenge you to produce ANYTHING that says, suggests, or implies otherwise.we both know that you won't!

Contrary to your lie Ali was knocked down by 1 unranked fighter. Holmes by 2.Holmes was also KD in the Olympic Trials by Duane Bobick.

Sonny Banks stopped14 of his 18victims for a near78% ko percentage.He was known for his left hook.
Watch the fight and tell me he couldn't punch!



In the next round Ali knocks him down with,guess what ? A left hook! You are ridiculous!

ps Ali was only a couple of pounds heavier than Banks
.
NO heavyweight has faced more top level punchers than ALI. Shavers floored a prime Holmes ,but he couldn't floor a past prime Ali.
I am AFFARID? Does that jive with;
HABDLY,SINPES,BONEVENA,JABERS, DECSION,SLLLY, NOTRON, DUDEE, SLALTS , NTARILY,SLIGHTY?

MENDOZA SPEAK? LOL

Why would I be afraid of you ? You illiterate Chimp?

You don't want to answer me? Of course you don't!

I rip you a new ASS every time you do!

Now he is being plum half-witted. Ali would beat Holmes to the punch consistently. Ali probably had the best ledger of all heavyweights. This makes Z a blind man telling others how to see.

[Bronson66]

Yet another one of those things I do not understand. Heavyweights coming in "heavy" and in this day and age? A free search of Youtube will allow one to watch most fights... Yet people seem to not do this. Also a cursory look at Ali would reveal that given his head movement and other gifts, jabs are not a weakness for him. Ali was susceptable to pressure, to being timed, because he would often move straight back... He could gas (later in his career) and be caught on the ropes...

I could be wrong about this but seems to me the only boxer good enough to outwit Ali with subtle touches... like perhaps even a jab, would be Jimmy Young (and maybe Leon Spinks). Have to watch the spinks fight again though because I remember Leon winning more from attrition.

You aren't wrong,imo.
Ali was terrible against Young, but he was past his best and overweight,imo Young ,because of his negative tactics did not deserve the win.
Ali beat too many excellent jabbers for Dr Duck's theory to be true.

Leon caught an overconfident complacent Ali at the right time. I don't think pressure alone beats Ali, Chuvalo couldn't do it,it was a combination of Spinks fighting the fight of his life and Ali not being in proper shape ,thinking he had a gimmee defence in front of him imo.

[billeau2]

You aren't wrong,imo.
Ali was terrible against Young, but he was past his best and overweight,imo Young ,because of his negative tactics did not deserve the win.
Ali beat too many excellent jabbers for Dr Duck's theory to be true.

Leon caught an overconfident complacent Ali at the right time. I don't think pressure alone beats Ali, Chuvalo couldn't do it,it was a combination of Spinks fighting the fight of his life and Ali not being in proper shape ,thinking he had a gimmee defence in front of him imo.

Young just forgot that there are ropes in a ring for a reason lol. Ali was technically past his best pretty much when he was released from prison. One can only imagine if Jones, for example, had most of his prime erased, how he would be viewed. While it often seems clique for the novice fans, there is a reason why people in the know are son judicious about crediting fighters success against a later Ali... I could never see the best of all the Spinks combined, challenging Ali at his best.

As far as a weakness, Ali really created his own with his style of moving straight back. But when we look at a fighter with the speed of a lighter divisions champ (T Stephenson the great Cuban was another one) and a heavyweight frame... The great ones have their reasons... Pablo Picasso painted stuff at times that looked like a kid's drawing but he could create magic and use classical forms when it suited his purposes, as well as any great artist at the time.

If I had to pick Ali's poison I would go with a legit pressure fighter, or a great fighter off the line (like an in tact Liston) but who knows?

[Dr. Z]

It's not in the book "Facing Ali" . If so please give us the page number. And Bronson is a new user name, not an alt. An alt has multiple accounts on one site. And if you think it's an alt and you don't respond to "alts" as you say.....you have a funny way of showing it. As far as this ridiculous thread goes, you have been taken to school and are looking foolish. You don't seem to be here to seriously talk boxing. You just want to make outrageous claims, make up lies to support it and get attention. Is that why you were banned, because you keep trolling?

Why must I do all the homework for you? I was given not time off disagreeing with others. You are wrong to suggest that. Mind your P's and Q's and don't talk politics. How do you know who is and who is not an alt? Do tell. An alt is a poster that used other names on the same site.

Some people laugh at Pinocho, others take him seriously. I say he lies. The nose tells the tale.