Jack Dempsey against Rocky Marciano

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Didn't Dempsey get knocked out in one round by Fireman Flynn and then duck Langford, Jeannette, and Wills.

Didn't Dempsey rather get called a yellow dog than fight Jeanette?

Didn't Dempsey nearly shlt his pants when Jeanette challenged him? Well, I'm not sure about that one. But he did tuck his tail and leave very quickly!

Clown!!!!

Your boy wouldn't fight any rated contenders and instead relied upon showing up out of the blue to random fights to challenge contenders rather than fight them in the ring!!!



Why didn't Jeanette aggressively pursue a match with Dempsey outside of the false premise situation??? Oh yeah because your boy knew he'd get rocked back 2 eras once he realized Dempsey's personal punching bag was too much for him!!

Enjoying being dog walked?

[Humean]

Dempsey ushered in the era of the puncher, what was to become the modern way of boxing. If you want to see a watershed fight watch Dempsey Tunney 1 where Tunney is basically fighting in a style that is the culmination of the James Figg, steps and set with a lead, style while Dempsey is forward weighted, imposing himself and using combinations of punches developed scientifically to give the boxer variety and the ability to strike with many weapons.

And it was not just Arcel...you have a mind for research, you will find that many of the great trainers who were around multi generation to the present thought Jack was the best with no contest.

You are baised in your prejudice that things must have progressed. As people have stated there is a lot of evidence that Dempsey was the goods. And there is nothing that says Dempsey could not be better than Ali.

I'm not arguing against the important place in history of Jack Dempsey, only the notion that he was superior in ability to later greats.

How many of those great trainers when they were making those judgements do you suppose were watching Dempsey's fights and then watching the fights of the other heavyweight greats? They were basing their judgements on faulty memories (not just because of their old age) or blind acceptance that this almost mythical fighter must have been incredible. It is all pure nostalgia.

You say i'm prejudiced but look at the evidence, the idea that sport in general has improved over time is not even up for debate in academic research on sporting performance, it is as clear as day that it has. Plus we are lucky enough to see some footage of some of these old greats and they just do not scrub up well compared to later boxers.

[Humean]

Humean,

You are incorrect when you say that Dempsey's opposition was the best that his period could offer, since you conveniently forget that Dempsey wanted no part of any of the colored HW fighters at that time. He would rather fight MWs like Georges Carpentier than tangle with the likes of Joe Jeanette.

You are correct that I was forgetting about the colour line but it wasn't Jeanette that he should have fought but Harry Wills. i'm not convinced he should be criticized too harshly for that though, such was the general (terrible) feeling at the time.

As to the original question in this thread i'd personally favour Marciano. I don't think Marciano was massively better than Dempsey but better I certainly think he was. As much as Dempsey seems to be lauded for his bobbing and weaving he really is not that impressive at it when you watch the footage of him. Marciano is actually quite a bit superior than Dempsey at avoiding punches and getting on the inside to throw punches.

[The Old LefHook]

They are both top 3 AT heavyweights. So either mops the floor with today's pretenders. Tubby Tyson Phony would have been the big game hunt of their day. The blockbuster and the mauler would bash, smash and mash the likes of Joshua or Haye and the other churls. The Klits may have been good enough to work as sparring partners for Rock & Jack. At any rate, the oldsters take all contemporary heavies to the woodshed for some fierce education.

[travestyny]

Your boy wouldn't fight any rated contenders and instead relied upon showing up out of the blue to random fights to challenge contenders rather than fight them in the ring!!!

Wouldn't fight any rated contenders? How many times did Jeannette fight Langford? Now remind me...what did Dempsey say about Langford? Did he or did he not say he was scared of him?

Didn't Dempsey duck Jeanette and Langford? Keep trying.

Why didn't Jeanette aggressively pursue a match with Dempsey outside of the false premise situation??? Oh yeah because your boy knew he'd get rocked back 2 eras once he realized Dempsey's personal punching bag was too much for him!!

Enjoying being dog walked?

Because Dempsey was going to duck him like he did to Langford when he said he was scared of him, and like he did with Wills when he broke a damn contract You do realize that one of the first things Dempsey did after winning the title was draw the color-line, right? Or did you forget that?

One more time. Who was willing to fight? Who ducked out? I'm waiting for your answer. "Enjoy being dog walked"???

Look how butthurt you got in here. Don't blame me. Blame Dempsey for ducking fighters like the plague!

[HOUDINI563]

Main point with a Dempsey Marciano bout is whether Rocky could get through the first five rounds. With Dempsey quick rush, his faster punches and great power my bet would be Dempsey by KO within 5 rounds.

[billeau2]

I'm not arguing against the important place in history of Jack Dempsey, only the notion that he was superior in ability to later greats.

How many of those great trainers when they were making those judgements do you suppose were watching Dempsey's fights and then watching the fights of the other heavyweight greats? They were basing their judgements on faulty memories (not just because of their old age) or blind acceptance that this almost mythical fighter must have been incredible. It is all pure nostalgia.

You say i'm prejudiced but look at the evidence, the idea that sport in general has improved over time is not even up for debate in academic research on sporting performance, it is as clear as day that it has. Plus we are lucky enough to see some footage of some of these old greats and they just do not scrub up well compared to later boxers.

Most people who comment on footage do not even know what to look for. Its like looking through a microscope the first time and thinking you will see something like in a textbook. You are assuming a trend because of correlations not effects resulting from causes. Have Horse Jockeys become better? How about pure power lifters? Boxing is more than a sport, it is fighting and fighting has some unique properties that make it a hybrid sport of sorts. Being a superior athlete is a part of training to be a fighter and many times we are shown that athletic ability is hardly the Holy Grail for a fighter.

Really? I mean you would disparage guys who have experience as some of the greatest trainers in the game claiming they are old and feeble minded? (my hyperbole, but isn't that what is implied?). You know academics use a similar strategy of ad hominum attacks. When an idea strikes them as preposterous they simply argue against the person making the argument... sometimes with funny results. When the Greeks became smart during the 18 hundreds instead of passionate capricious individuals and Plato was elevated, there was the slight problem that he wrote as a historian and basically said Atlantis exists as told to him by primary sources of Egyptian heritage. Well... the academy could not have that! so it was declared that Greeks were not literal minded when doing historical analysis, and Plato was using a myth...which is why the Republic is also read a certain way...MEANWHILE, while many historians including Xenopon say that Socrates argued badly at his trial, which is why he lost, Plato's version is the best that fits the narrative so...guess what? sometimes presumably he is a good historian ahhem.

Ill agree to disagree but arguing that those who argue otherwise are lacking is a way to avoid the substance of those arguments. IMO.

[Bundana]

arguing that those who argue otherwise are lacking is a way to avoid the substance of those arguments. IMO.

I couldn't agree more - but isn't that exactly, what is happening here all the time?

I mean, how many times have we seen someone trying to have a serious discussion... only to be brushed aside with the usual YDNSAB, by those who believe, they hold some kind of monopoly on the "truth".

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Wouldn't fight any rated contenders? How many times did Jeannette fight Langford? Now remind me...what did Dempsey say about Langford? Did he or did he not say he was scared of him?

Didn't Dempsey duck Jeanette and Langford? Keep trying.



Because Dempsey was going to duck him like he did to Langford when he said he was scared of him, and like he did with Wills when he broke a damn contract You do realize that one of the first things Dempsey did after winning the title was draw the color-line, right? Or did you forget that?

One more time. Who was willing to fight? Who ducked out? I'm waiting for your answer. "Enjoy being dog walked"???

Look how butthurt you got in here. Don't blame me. Blame Dempsey for ducking fighters like the plague!

Lmfao you're embarassed to **** you can tell by your walls of text in reply to my couple sentences!!

Jeanette fought old man Langford when Dempsey was around and fought nobody worth a damn except for lightheavyweight Kid Norfolk, some Dempsey punching bags, and some old men! Most of the time he lost or barely won against Dempsey's mid day workout!

[travestyny]

Lmfao you're embarassed to **** you can tell by your walls of text in reply to my couple sentences!!

Jeanette fought old man Langford when Dempsey was around and fought nobody worth a damn except for lightheavyweight Kid Norfolk, some Dempsey punching bags, and some old men! Most of the time he lost or barely won against Dempsey's mid day workout!

You are still going? Really? Why the hell would I be embarrassed that Dempsey ran away from Jeanette????

You're the one simply trying too hard. When your first defense was "Jeanette should have assaulted Dempsey," it was clear that your feelings were hurt and you probably cried yourself to sleep.

Simple question: Did Dempsey run away from Jeanette's challenge in New York City?

I'll await your reply.